Dosing Macro and Micro on the same day, and add Easylife Ferro. but precipitation?

[ian_m]

I will half dose the Marco on alternative day

Why only half dose...? as I said 'Virtually everyone that tries to deviate from EI "oh I invented this dosing technique..." ends up with issues' unless you lighting is low and therefore a proper EI dose is not needed.

A breakdown of Tropica's all in one formula. Thanks!

Notice the presence of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate helps keep the iron chelated and, as they are dosing ammonium nitrate, helps keep ammonia as the less fish toxic NH4.

 

[JayZH]

Im sure they add ammonia/um for a reason but I dont think anyone here knows why or maybe there is(?).

I noticed from use Tropica s ferts, I did get a mini spike in nitrite every day. guess, either Ammounium turned into Ammonia, or the nitrfying bactria converts Ammoium also to Nitrite.

Plants actually prefer Ammoium, I read its in the order of Ammoium, Nitrate, Nitrite. so I guess Tropica put Ammoium for the benefit of plants rather tan livestock. The mini spike is minumal, 0.25ppm. doesn't harm anything.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
The other posters are right, the problem is that nearly all iron (Fe) compounds are insoluble. Once you have Fe++ (ferric) iron ions in solution they will combine with nearly all anions (including hydroxide OH-) to give insoluble compounds.

Because iron II is one of the most tightly bound ions in cation exchange (<"the lyotropic series">) Iron compounds are amongst the first to be precipitated. This is why soils develop an "iron pan", and ancient leached soils are formed of insoluble iron and aluminium compounds (<"laterite">).

This problem led to the development of iron chelation, using compounds like <"FeEDTA">. This is chemically stable but degraded by light, meaning that a trickle of iron ions are released by photo-degradation.

Phosphorus has some of the same problems, in that most phosphates are also insoluble. Polyphosphates also act as chelators, but are cheaper and less efficient ones than EDTA, EDDHA etc.

cheers Darrel

 

[Jose]

Thanks Darrel!
Can you tell by the colour of your solution if your Fe-EDTA bond has broken?. Mine is green at first and then turns into orange I think after some time.

 

[ian_m]

Can you tell by the colour of your solution if your Fe-EDTA bond has broken?. Mine is green at first and then turns into orange I think after some time.

It is the ferric iron (iron II) compound which is red/brown coming from the ferrous iron (iron III) compound which is green. Plants prefer ferrous as generally more soluble and by keeping pH low (acid) stays as ferrous iron.

Read end of article here.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm

Not so sure if it makes any difference ferrous or ferric as far as plants are concerned.

 

[Jose]

I noticed from use Tropica s ferts, I did get a mini spike in nitrite every day. guess, either Ammounium turned into Ammonia, or the nitrfying bactria converts Ammoium also to Nitrite.
Plants actually prefer Ammoium, I read its in the order of Ammoium, Nitrate, Nitrite. so I guess Tropica put Ammoium for the benefit of plants rather tan livestock. The mini spike is minumal, 0.25ppm. doesn't harm anything.

This has been debated at the barr report and the conclusion is that using ammonia isnt worth it. But what is the reason they use it if its not worth the risk? Mnah my plants grow fast enough really so....

 

[Jose]

It is the ferric iron (iron II) compound which is red/brown coming from the ferrous iron (iron III) compound which is green. Plants prefer ferrous as generally more soluble and by keeping pH low (acid) stays as ferrous iron.
Read end of article here.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm
Not so sure if it makes any difference ferrous or ferric as far as plants are concerned.

Thanks Ian, I think Ill have to prepare a new solution.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Mine is green at first and then turns into orange I think after some time.

Ian is right iron II compounds (ferrous) are green, and iron III compounds (ferric) are rusty coloured (sorry I've just noticed I've lost a "I" in the last post).

If you don't keep your FeEDTA in the dark the FeEDTA will be photo-degraded and the iron ions will form insoluble Fe2O3 (basically "rust") and precipitate out of solution.

If it is a sealed bottle the available oxygen may be used up before all the iron is oxidised. <"It was the oxygen from the first photosynthetic organisms"> that deposited most of the iron ore reserves that we still utilise.

cheers Darrel

 

[ceg4048]

The reason is simple. Ammonium salts are cheaper and deliver a higher Nitrogen content per unit weight than NO3 can. It's basic economics. That's the same reason farmers use ammonium salts. Ammonium has nothing to do with binding in this context. That's all completely rubbish. The salts all dissolve and the ions are free to react depending on the temperature, acidity, hardness and so forth.

The assumptions made by the OP are absolutely preposterous. A fish dies, a bogus test kit reports impossible numbers, and, based on dodgy values, the hobbyist then decides to use ammonium based salt, which is potentially 1000X more toxic to life than NO3.

Cheers,

 

[Jose]

The reason is simple. Ammonium salts are cheaper and deliver a higher Nitrogen content per unit weight than NO3 can. It's basic economics. That's the same reason farmers use ammonium salts. Ammonium has nothing to do with binding in this context. That's all completely rubbish. The salts all dissolve and the ions are free to react depending on the temperature, acidity, hardness and so forth.

Such a big company is selling fish poison then? They have quite an image to maintain. Something isnt adding up in my book. Maybe theyve done some testing and it turns out that our filters run better with a bit of ammonia added periodically so that it can better cope with a spike(?¿). Just guessing but fish ferts arent produced in such a big quantity as to go to the extremes of adding a fish poison, but its just my opinión of course. Its not like fertilizing crops in the field where it does make an economical difference. I think a fish product is all about quality even if they have to charge the buyer 1 pound more.
To be honest this isnt such a big deal for me since my plants grow fast enough already, its just curiosity.

 

[ceg4048]

No, your suppositions are entirely off the mark. There is one very obvious way around toxicity and that is to reduce the concentration to minuscule levels, and so that's what they do. It's not just that company, but all of them that use ammonium salts. The concentrations are extremely low and the bottle is almost 99% water.

So, in reducing the concentration level, they not only reduce the toxicity, but also reduce the VALUE of the product, while at the same time, they charge ridiculous amounts of money for the bottle. Please go to the Tutorial section of the forum and read the EI tutorial. I explain all this in my opening paragraph.

This strategy was started by Dupla. At the time, they used a nitrate salt and so they could use a much higher concentration level in a bottle the size of an eyedrop bottle. So you squeezed the bottle and drops came out. This came to be known as "Dupla Drops". Unfortunately, at a unit price of over £500 per liter, the thing that "dropped" the most was the hobbyist's spendable income.

A couple of clever guys (Sears & Conlin) figured out that there was just KNO3 and trace element mix in the eyedropper bottle - stuff that could be found in any garden center. Thus was born the recipe known as "Poor Man's Dupla Drops" (PMDD) and due to the threat of copyright infringement rules, had to be renamed "Poor Man's Dosing Drops". EI is, in many ways, an extension of PMDD since Sears & Conlin, at the time, still implicated PO4 in algal blooms, so they did not add PO4 to their recipe. In modern times the recipe has been extended to PMDD+PO4 since Barr demonstrated that PO4 was not responsible for algal blooms and was instead, very necessary.

Many people use commercial fertilizer products (or no products at all) with great success, and they always are quick to argue this point, but the thing they forget is that most people use tap water in their tanks and in fact, most tap water, in the UK at least, usually have some level of PO4 and NO3 anyway. IThat's why Nitrate haters are always blaming Nitrate for their algae and for their fish health woes, and that's why they are always looking for ways to eliminate Nitrate.

Cheers,

 

[Jose]

Mmmm Ok, Ok. In all honesty Ive never really used comercial products like this one. But thanks for the info. But it still not a good business practice IMHO.
Maybe its designed to be dosed daily. This way added to the low concentration doesnt let there be any bad effect on life forms.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I have a similar jaundiced view to Clive on the honesty and integrity of many of the large suppliers of "specialist aquarium" equipment, fertilizers, fluorescent tubes and filter media.

I think in this case that they use ammonium polyphosphate for a reason, and that is because it is widely available and has properties as an emulsifier and chelating agent. If it was purely on a cost basis, urea (CO(NH2)2) would be cheaper.

My suspicion would be that the companies use what is the most cost effective option for them, which I can understand, but then they use advertising which is deliberately obscure and misleading (although presumably legal) to sell a, cheap to produce, product for a huge mark up.

I start from the premise that I'll review at the advertising blurb for the bits of science that I'm pretty sure that I understand.

Because I come from a scientific back-ground in botany and horticulture, and I've worked for ~20 years in a lab. where we did a lot of work in ecology and phytoremediation, I think I've probably got more understanding of the principles that under-pin much of what happens in the aquarium than the average fish keeper.

The other great advantage I have is that I work in the same school with statisticians, animal ecologists, plant physiologists, micro-biologists, plant ecologists and analytical chemists, so I when I don't understand something I can always ask a colleague.

For example when an analytical chemist with 35 years experience, in a lab. with ~£500,000's of pounds worth of kit, tells you it is quite difficult to measure some anions (like NO3-) accurately, you tend to take their word for it.

Whilst where on the subject of ions, plants can only take up nutrients when they are in solution as ions. Every NO3- or NH4+ ion is the same, it doesn't matter where it came from, it doesn't know it was from NH3NO3 or KNO3 etc., once they are in solution they are all the same.

Reactive elements like potassium (K), nitrogen (N) and oxygen (O) have been on Earth for the last 4.5 billion years combined in a huge range of compounds, they don't "know" what those compunds were.

It is the same with fluorescent tubes with "special phosphors" etc. It is all smoke and mirrors, or the Emperor's new clothes.

cheers Darrel

 

[Jose]

Because I come from a scientific back-ground in botany and horticulture, and I've worked for ~20 years in a lab. where we did a lot of work in ecology and phytoremediation, I think I've probably got more understanding of the principles that under-pin much of what happens in the aquarium than the average fish keeper.
The other great advantage I have is that I work in the same school with statisticians, animal ecologists, plant physiologists, micro-biologists, plant ecologists and analytical chemists, so I when I don't understand something I can always ask a colleague.
For example when an analytical chemist with 35 years experience, in a lab. with ~£500,000's of pounds worth of kit, tells you it is quite difficult to measure some anions (like NO3-) accurately, you tend to take their word for it.

This is why people like you are quite useful to these type of forums. Its not that people like Tom Barr are Gods or anything its just this is what they do for a living and have been doing this for a few years. Its always very healthy in IMO to have different views as long as they are based ones.

 

[Frenchi]

Hi
I contacted john APF and ordered the following this enabled me to mix the whole lot together and dose the normal EI but because it's all in one I add it at half the dose daily .. Or if you prefer you can add at full dose but just 3 times a week .. My shrimp and fish are still alive and not to forget my plants are too.
magnesium sulphate
Potassium phosphate
Potassium nitrate
Ascorbic
Sorbate
Chelated trace elements


Cheers

Mick

 

[Edvet]

phytoremediation

Had to look it up, but that is interesing stuff, good job man.

 

[JayZH]

Hi
I contacted john APF and ordered the following this enabled me to mix the whole lot together and dose the normal EI but because it's all in one I add it at half the dose daily .. Or if you prefer you can add at full dose but just 3 times a week .. My shrimp and fish are still alive and not to forget my plants are too.
magnesium sulphate
Potassium phosphate
Potassium nitrate
Ascorbic
Sorbate
Chelated trace elements


Cheers

Mick

Cool, I think i will order the same, what's the quantity of Ascorbic and Sorbate you ordered, Are they in salt form or liquid form? what's the percentage of the element you mix with other dry salt.

 

[Frenchi]

Cool, I think i will order the same, what's the quantity of Ascorbic and Sorbate you ordered, Are they in salt form or liquid form? what's the percentage of the element you mix with other dry salt.

It's in dry form

500ml Bottle
Add Macro parts (Nitrate, Phosphate, Mag)
Add 1/2 tsp Ascorbic & 1/4 tsp Sorbate
Add water and dissolve
Add Trace
Shake and leave overnight
I tend to times the above by 4 and mix in 2 litre pop bottles..

Hope this helps

Edit sorry should have said this is standard Ei mix but then dose standard Ei 3 days a week or half the dose and do it everyday