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Ammania sp. bonsai melting

I don't I'm afraid, im using the Jbl proscape NKP stuff at the minute and try to dose per instructions which are not very clear.
 
Ph wise in the tank.
Tap ph=6
Tank before c02 on =5.5
Tank 2 hours after c02 on = 5

My test kit goes no lower than 5
Kh in my supply is 1-2
 
I don't I'm afraid, im using the Jbl proscape NKP stuff at the minute and try to dose per instructions which are not very clear.

Here is the origin to all your problems. This is why comercial ferts arent normally any good. I recommend checking how much you are dosing in an on line nutrient calculator and then adapt to ei levels or you can buy ei salts instead.

your plants might not have enough of a certain nutrient (maybe iron? Who knows).

all plants dont have same needs, so you might see deficiencies only in some.
 
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Hello,
Plants melting is always indicative of a CO2 deficiency. Nutrient deficiency does not cause this so save yourself time and energy by looking at your CO2 distribution, injection rate, flow. You can also reduce your light intensity to help in the short term.

Regardless of your pH drop the plants are telling you that something in your delivery method is not right.

If you want to get more useful pH data then the only thing you can do is to raise the KH a few units with any carbonate salt ot by puuting some coral sand in the filter.

Cheers,
 
Thanks for your reply Jose is appreciated. All the online calculators don't have this stuff on there list as its a new product and the Jbl site isn't great, I'll use this up but have ordered salts to doae myself so I know exactly what's going in.
 
Thanks Clive, I have reduced the lights from 3x 8w T5's to two till things pick up.
I also placed the drop checker close to the sp. bonsai at the bottom right of the tank. The drop checker didn't turn green till 1 to 1.5 hours after the light went on. I turned up C02 a little and the drop checker went yellow so I'm assuming I should maybe have it on 3 hours before lights on rather than turning up injection?

I'm going to try and make a directional elbow to force flow down from the outlet but to be honest the micro bubbles reach all the plants to the extent bubbles build up under larger plant leaves. Would this not indicate the flow and distribution is ok?

I'm going to supplant my water changes with s little bicarb to bring up the Ph, the tds in my area is like 27ppm so very low.
I take it the Ada amazonia is pulling the ph down?
Your input/ help is appreciated!!
 
"Plants melting is always indicative of a CO2 deficiency. Nutrient deficiency does not cause this so save yourself time and energy by looking at your CO2 distribution, injection rate, flow. You can also reduce your light intensity to help in the short term"

I relly find this hard to believe ceg.
how do you know his plants have enogh nutrients?
how do you know if plants can cope better or not with low co2 levels if they have plenty of other nutrients and vice versa?
If you look at a low tech tank where co2 is always aprox the same, you will get melting (or at least I do) when one or more of your nutrients fall too low. I dont use test kits but if I stop dosing I can see this happening.
 
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Hello,
Plants melting is always indicative of a CO2 deficiency. Nutrient deficiency does not cause this so save yourself time and energy by looking at your CO2 distribution, injection rate, flow. You can also reduce your light intensity to help in the short term.

Regardless of your pH drop the plants are telling you that something in your delivery method is not right.

If you want to get more useful pH data then the only thing you can do is to raise the KH a few units with any carbonate salt ot by puuting some coral sand in the filter.

Cheers,


I´m gonna out a post right now about Amannia... and forgive me Clive but i do not believe is a Co2 issue... you´ll see... read my post.
Compliments.
 
Melt of the MC and helferi looks like the plant was adapting and now is happy so trimming after it has good growth will sort that.
Ammania bis a bugger for this, goes great for a few weeks then melts. It needs really good co2 until it has grown tall then replant tops. After that time you can normally back off a bit on the co2. I'd suggest removing the unhappy plants to allow more circulation around the others. Increase the co2 and once grown some more chop the tops off and replant them. Old trimmed plants should sprout new stems. If melt continues keep looking at co2 and flow until it stops.


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If its 1-2 amania it really is a bugger for this. i know a few people thats had a few tries at this plant and failed, myself included. I grew a load in my propagator and it makes the transition to immersed growth much better than 1-2 gro. Once in its immersed form its a really easy plant to grow.
Looking at the other plants in your tank theres definately flow/co2 issues but if you lose all your ammania shoot me a pm and i'll send you some immersed cuttings
 
If its 1-2 amania it really is a bugger for this. i know a few people thats had a few tries at this plant and failed, myself included. I grew a load in my propagator and it makes the transition to immersed growth much better than 1-2 gro. Once in its immersed form its a really easy plant to grow.
Looking at the other plants in your tank theres definately flow/co2 issues but if you lose all your ammania shoot me a pm and i'll send you some immersed cuttings

I'd appreciate if you could tell me where you see flow/ c02 issues?
Thanks for the cutting offerings, that's really nice if you mate!
 
Just to check first have you used liquid carbon to spot treat algae?
The monte carlo looks identical to what mine was doing then i changed to my glass spraybar and it got better. I thought my flow was pretty good and didn't think it made much, if any difference but the small positive increase in flow made all the difference.
I've used that light on my 40cm cube and its just right, use 2 tubes till the tank grows in a bit then use all 3
 
I'm not using liquid carbon and I have no algae in the tank.
So are you saying you have a spray bar in a 40cm cube? I've look but couldn't see anything suitable
 
"Plants melting is always indicative of a CO2 deficiency. Nutrient deficiency does not cause this so save yourself time and energy by looking at your CO2 distribution, injection rate, flow. You can also reduce your light intensity to help in the short term"

I relly find this hard to believe ceg.
Redpill.jpg



how do you know his plants have enogh nutrients?
Because nutrient deficiency syndromes do not include melting. They only include discoloration and nutrient deficiency related algae.
The quick answer is in my post http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/heres-my-issue-with-bba.12101/#post-129052

The long winded version is the thread http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/what-causes-leaves-to-melt-and-what-to-do-now.20421/


how do you know if plants can cope better or not with low co2 levels if they have plenty of other nutrients and vice versa?
Because coping with low CO2 is a function of light and temperature. There is a relationship between the nutrient load and the CO2 requirements but that relationship is exhibited when the availability of these are on the margin of deficiency.

If you look at a low tech tank where co2 is always aprox the same, you will get melting (or at least I do) when one or more of your nutrients fall too low.
I'm sorry but you must be misdiagnosing the events in your tank. How do you know the CO2 is always the same? Which nutrient goes low and how are you determining too low? Presumably, adding more of that nutrient resolves the melting? It's very difficult to unravel the events and casue/effect scenariosin one person's tank much less unraveling events in multiple tanks. The one constant is that poor CO2 is responsible for a LOT of things, including melting.


I´m gonna out a post right now about Amannia... and forgive me Clive but i do not believe is a Co2 issue... you´ll see... read my post.
Paulo, your tank, if it's the same that I'm thinking about, has a history of poor CO2. It almost became a soap opera it went on for so long mate. And since you have fish in the tank you are very limited in terms of how far you can push your CO2, right? So you can nevr find out exactly how much CO2 is required for THAT plant in order to achieve a seamles transition. Why does everybody automatically assume that no plant should have difficulty with the CO2 limitations of their tank? What if the threshold for survival of a particular species or specimen is beyond what we can currently achieve in our tanks due to specific limitations such as fish. This is exactly the same as those people who use megawatts and assume that a green dropchecker should be OK;
"Well, it's lime green isn't it? The tutorial states specifically lime green."
What if you have so much light in the tank that the required CO2 is beyond the toxicity threshold of the fish? How will you ever discover the threshold if you never remove those limitations? Then you draw conclusions based on a very limited set of conditions.

Again, let me state the Prime Directive: Melting is caused by poor CO2. It's your job to figure out WHY a plant suffers poor CO2. The reasons why can be extremely complicated. 95% of plant health problems in your tank are caused by poor CO2. Even if the cause were some other, more exotic reason, you have a 95% chance of solving the problem if you focus your energy on the "WHY" of poor CO2.

Cheers,
 
I'll have a nice read through your posts ceg so I can come back with new questions. Thanks for the links.

In my low tech tanks I get plants melting (specially crypts) when I stop dosing nutrients in general for a long time. I don't know which one specifically falls too low. How do I know it's nutrients? Cause it happens when I stop dosing ( only variable changing) not when I dose on a weekly basis. Why is co2 the same? Well cause aeration is always the same and I haven't got any natural soils etc. I know there are other things contributing to co2 but I bet aeration keeps it quite constant and it's over a very long period of time. Anyway I can't see how a plant cannot die (melt) if it doesn't have enough nutrients.

I know co2 changes and lack of it also make plants melt but I think low nutrients do as well.

If someone gets melting and he's told to up co2, and his problem gets fixed this doesn't mean co2 was the only answer. Maybe if he was told to up nutrients his problem would have ended as well. This I've noticed a couple of times.

If a person is dosing ei and gets melting, then you most probably can say this is a co2 problem, but it's not the case if a person isn't dosing ei
 
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Also, does lemna minor not melt/die when there arent enough nutrients in the water? There is no CO2 limitation for this one. It first goes pale but it ends up dying.

Carbon is the most important element for plants but its easier to rule out nutrients first. Once we are dosing EI then we can go chasing CO2.
 
Explain this:

Why the plant stayed alive and well coloured and with white roots, during an entire week in the breeding trap and has soon she´s planted she died?

In less than 24 hours she simple disapear.. and the roots beneath were all brown/black and dead.

The Co2 was the same as nutrients as parameters of the water or what ever..

This is our starting point.
 
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