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Adding nitrate to stocked aquarium

Stevieblue

Seedling
Joined
16 Jun 2014
Messages
2
Hi all
I am currently using ei dosing and wandered wether to leave out the nitrate from my mixture as I have quite a heavily stocked aquarium. Recently my nitrate readings have risen which I suppose would do if adding nitrate. Currently nitrates are at 80ppm. Any advice greatly appreciated.
 
Welcome

I would hate to know what test kits said about my tank. Why don't you just do 75% w/c rather than 50% and still dose the KNO3?

You could also try cut back a little on the KNO3 wait a few weeks and see how your plants are doing, if they're okay cut back a little more. Do this until you notice the plants suffering then up the dosage to the previous period.
 
Hello mate, just wanted to add that i do not trust nitrate test kits much, I usually rely more on observing the health of both fish and plants. Just my opinion! Hope everything pans out :)
 
Hi
I wouldn't bother worrying about it...I have 40/50ppm in my municipal tap water but i still dose KNO3.
Hobby test kits are not that accurate......as stated in previous posts.
hoggie
 
Here is my visual explanation.
No nitrate added growth as seen in the bottom of the plant, or rather low nitrate derived in a natural way, and then plenty of nitrate(dry salts) added half way through the ludwiga growth which changed the size of the leaves and density of nodules.
I didn't mind either type of growth or look. All you need to strive for is never have nitrate at zero as that's when problems like algae and sorry looking plants happen. But in low tech tanks or tanks that don't get much cleaning and water changing, I don't add too much nitrate at a time, I won't go in detail why because I'll be crucified here. As far as your fish go, they don't care about how much you add. There's no decent scientific study that proves nitrates on their own have any affect on fish whatsoever, even at higher levels than you can even would dose in a high tech. The problem is if the nitrate level in your tank is a result of high ammonia to nitrite to nitrate conversion. It's a very exhausting process that changes the chemistry of the tank in a bad way.
709bc558-c93f-430f-8324-d66a1250e8cc_zps8ec4fae6.jpg
 
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Hi
Thanks for replys. Iam happy with everything going on in the tank ,seems to be nicely balanced at the mo. Only reason for the question was I had a sudden unexplainable death hence the chemistry set came out. Once I seen the nitrate level (according to test kit )I was thinking of maybe cutting the nitrate out from my mix. But visually looking at the tank I have no concerns other than my lost discus. Suppose these things happen now and then.
 
Welcome to the forum Stevie. And sorry for your fish.
It's most likely a coincidence. However in a heavily stocked, older tank with anaerobic aereas which can be common in planted tanks, you can get nitrAte to nitrIte conversion which is not common but can happen. So sometimes the problem is not because one adds nitrates but because high nitrates can lead to nitrate to nitrite conversion on regular basis. However, the most probable cause of demise and problem of fish is the amount of ammonia a tank has to deal with and the associated organic build up if plants, cleaning and water changes aren't enough to deal with it.
With all that said, your discus may have died from about thousand other causes.
 
Here is my visual explanation.
No nitrate added growth as seen in the bottom of the plant, or rather low nitrate derived in a natural way, and then plenty of nitrate(dry salts) added half way through the ludwiga growth which changed the size of the leaves and density of nodules.
I didn't mind either type of growth or look. All you need to strive for is never have nitrate at zero as that's when problems like algae and sorry looking plants happen. But in low tech tanks or tanks that don't get much cleaning and water changing, I don't add too much nitrate at a time, I won't go in detail why because I'll be crucified here. As far as your fish go, they don't care about how much you add. There's no decent scientific study that proves nitrates on their own have any affect on fish whatsoever, even at higher levels than you can even would dose in a high tech. The problem is if the nitrate level in your tank is a result of high ammonia to nitrite to nitrate conversion. It's a very exhausting process that changes the chemistry of the tank in a bad way.
709bc558-c93f-430f-8324-d66a1250e8cc_zps8ec4fae6.jpg

Does this mean, in terms of fish more sensitive to nitrate, i.e marine fish and corals etc (sorry, unrelated topic) are they more sensitive to the conversion of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate?
 
Does this mean, in terms of fish more sensitive to nitrate, i.e marine fish and corals etc (sorry, unrelated topic) are they more sensitive to the conversion of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate?

Can't answer on behalf of science fiction, but I think point is the nitrites, not the sensitivity to nitrates. Nitrites are toxic even in very small amounts, nitrates are not. It's not about the conversion, it's about the presence of nitrites at all.

Nitrate sensitivity causes much debate and most here will heavily dose nitrates in tanks containing species thought to be sensitive to them with no ill effect
 
Depending on how your tank is setup you could get some surface plants or very fast growing stem plants to mop up all the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, Plant heavy. Make sure you get your flow and CO2 right, (ie probably add more in a safe way. I assume you're adding CO2 since you're talking about EI), lights is also important but not so much if you get the flow and co2 sorted. Do big water changes, if you're not happy at doing one big 75% change why don't you do 25% every other day. If you have a healthy heavy planted tank then you really don't need to worry about ammonia.
 
Does this mean, in terms of fish more sensitive to nitrate, i.e marine fish and corals etc (sorry, unrelated topic) are they more sensitive to the conversion of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate?

I can't argue about saltwater much because the processes and toxicity of things are different, e.g nitrite is less toxic in marine enviorment, there are other chemical reactions in place not so common in freshwater..,etc..
But high organic nitrates indicates previously high presence of ammonia which is toxic to all type of fish. Plus the associated processes and byproducts of them and their effect on fish and water chemistry has to be taken into consideration. The nitrogen cycle involves a lot of oxygen consumption. In high organic environment where lots of organics are present for various reasons, they decompose via oxygen. Ammonia get converted to nitrite and nitrate via oxygen, fish, plants need oxygen, other aerobic bacteria and microorganisms rely on oxygen to support the system, etc.. So high organics lead to high ammonia, low oxygen conditions, possibly nitrate to nitrite conversion in anaerobic areas, nitric acid, etc.. These are enough to stunt your fish or kill them and then one blames it on high nitrates which is just a product/indicator of all that's happened up to then.
 
you can get nitrAte to nitrIte conversion which is not common but can happen
Hi, I'm pretty sure that higher concentrations of nitrate (beyond what is required for healthy plant growth) can result in some being utilised by bacteria in processes that lead to nitrites at levels significant enough to effect fish physiology.

I'm happy with the idea that nitrates alone are not toxic, but whenever I've pushed up the nitrates for a period of over two weeks some fish get sluggish, swim listlessly, lose appetite and seem to have difficulty respiring (flared out gills), however they don't gasp at the surface. Pearling plants suggest water is fully saturated in oxygen, and CO2 levels are safe. A partial water change and the effects are immediately reversed with fish regaining vitality and appetite and displaying normal behaviour. All seems to indicate a gradual increase in the concentration of nitrites. I add nitrates daily but in very small amounts, and have nitrates in tapwater too, I just don't whack in loads without worry about excess for the above reasons.

it supports the idea of mandatory weekly waterchanges in conjunction with EI dosing. Shoot me down.
 
Due to a faulty dosing pump timer I dumped 1litre of EI macro mix into 180l tank giving over 300ppm nitrate for couple of days before I noticed.

Were fish bothered, nope, normal shoaling and food hunting activity. Absolutely no change in their behaviour.

It was only the whirring of the dosing pump that gave the game away.
 
Hi, I'm pretty sure that higher concentrations of nitrate (beyond what is required for healthy plant growth) can result in some being utilised by bacteria in processes that lead to nitrites at levels significant enough to effect fish physiology.
This is not true at all. You have some other problem going on in your tank and it's very easy to blame the boogie man. If I had to guess I'd say it was either a CO2 overdose or low oxygen due to organic pollution.

Pearling plants don't tell you ANYTHING about the saturation of Oxygen within the water. That's another illusion. One illusion built on another.

There is such a thing as nitrate toxicity, but it doesn't happen due to bacteria reducing the NO3 to NO2. It happens inside the fish who produce an enzyme called Nitrate Reductase. Nitrate actually isn't poisonous, it only can become toxic due to the animals body reducing it to Nitrite. However, the concentration levels required for that to happen in tropicals are astronomical.

I mean really people, you change your water and the fish become better - and you blame it on Nitrate?
There is no "getting better" from NO2 or NH3 poisoning. The damage is permanent, so that should tell you immediately that you have some other problem.

Cheers,
 
Well going easy on dosing has other secondary effects, such as less organic pollution, which causes less oxygen depletion.

The article also clearly indicates that the NO2 concentration rise follows on the heels of NH3 concentration rise, whereas you clearly blamed Nitrate. Was this a typo?

Hi, I'm pretty sure that higher concentrations of nitrate (beyond what is required for healthy plant growth) can result in some being utilised by bacteria in processes that lead to nitrites at levels significant enough to effect fish physiology
That sounds like banging on about nitrate toxicity.

Is it meant to imply that only Nitrite toxicity causes listlessness and rapid gill movement?

When dosing heavily without performing a large water change one will always risk pollution because plants will produce massive amounts of organic waste including proteins, lipids and carbohydrates. So if you did experience the lower rate of toxicity syndrome from lower rates of nitrite then it would be more rational to conclude that your tank has produced less organic pollution and that there is less NH3 production from that lowered level of pollution, which also results in less oxidation of the NH3 to NO2.

That's why eutrophic dosing requires larger and more frequent water changes. It's NOT to lower the NO3 but instead to lower the pollution that results from the plants elevated metabolism.

Cheers,
 
As the saying goes, 'the solution to pollution is dilution'
If in doubt good quality water change
 
...
higher concentrations of nitrate (beyond what is required for healthy plant growth) can result in some being utilised by bacteria in processes that lead to nitrites at levels significant enough to effect fish physiology.

I'm merely suggesting that the three ways that nitrates can be converted by bacteria to nitrites could result in an accumulation of nitrites in some aquariums. Diana Walstad references research that suggests that bacterial utilisation of nitrates leading to end point of nitrite could be quite common (without further conversion to N2)
 
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