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Unknown problem with ember tetras. No one can identify it?

JamieB

JamieB

Member
Joined
27 Dec 2013
Messages
273
Hi all

Difficult one for you all here. I've been to my local aquarium shops and no one knows what the issue is with my Ember Tetras. Firstly here's a picture:
rlNbzso.jpg


Now this Ember seems to be turning black from the inside. It's perfectly healthy and eats fine until about a week before it dies where it gets these spots all over it and then dies and turns completely white.

It then seems to infect 1 or 2 other fish and goes again.

Now this sounds parasitic right? But it's not breeding as I've only lost about 4/5 fish over the last 6 months to it. I can't remember if my Neon's get the issue too but it obviously is affecting my embers.

2 aquarium shops have no idea what it is and suggested dosing the following 2 things
eSha Exit
eSha 2000

I did these on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday last week and no help but I'm not sure how long these take to kick in.

The tank is an AquaOne AquaNano 40 with the standard filtration consiting of a large sponge block, ceramic noodles and Purigen, I left ALL of this in whilst dosing and didn't water change. Not sure if this is too little but I've had the tank for about 3 years now and these embers have been in about 10 months.

I have some aquarium salt to try but not sure what you guys think? I've also been advised to take out the sponge foam and the purigen and redose with the eSha 2000 and the salt after doing a 20% water change.

Any ideas firstly what it is and secondly if the above would be advisable?

Thanks all
Jamie
 
I'm pretty sure purigen would remove medication from the water, activated carbon certainly does. I'm afraid I can't i.d. the disease and I am not familiar with the eSha range. I would recommend you increase the number of water changes (when not medicating). I think salt is considered a bad idea with softwater fish like embers, it may only stress them more, allowing the infection to spread.

Sorry I can't be of more help, good luck with your embers, they are beautiful fish.
 
The two esha medications can be used together and between them they claim it hits a lot of things. However it is a scattergun approach and obviously not the same as finding out exactly what it is and treating it specifically, which is difficult if we can't find out what it is. I'm also not sure about leaving purigen in while medicating, and if you try again I would certainly take that out. The sponge, is it a normal one, or a carbon one (usually black)? Normal ones are fine to leave in. Carbon ones should be taken out, although if it has been there for a while it may be saturated anyway.

Personally I wouldn't use salt without having at least one symptom which is know treatable by it.

Apart from that, double check aquarium conditions are right for the fish so they have best chance to fight off any problems themselves.
 
I did use them together but was thinking of just using the 2000 this time alone? The sponge is this one:
http://www.fishpetsreptiles.co.uk/products/detail.php?prodcat=1&prodtype=3&prodid=343

It's black but looks like a standard style one. I've never changed this after reading online that it's pointless to change? Same with the noodles.

Condition seem OK. PH is perhaps on the high scale for tetras as it comes out of my taps in the high 7's. Ammonia is below 5ppm even just before the water change is due, nitrites also below 5ppm (if not 0) Nitrates are a little high after testing this morning at around 80ppm but out of the tap is 20ppm and I am due a water change which I'll do today.
 
Is this a new tank? That ammonia and nitrite shouldn't be there and is likely a major factor. Do a big water change as soon as you can (like 50%+), being careful to match temperatures. Trying medications is secondary to getting the water cleaned up!
 
Well it was between 0-5ppm on both, I only have the API master kit to go off and the colours on the comparison sheet aren't the easiest to compare to and as I say I am due a water change so I'd expect marginally higher than 0 PPM I would have thought?
 
In a mature tank ammonia and nitrites should be undetectable to any significant level as the filter and/or plants should process it into less harmful compounds. Also, as hard as the API test kit is, you should be able to narrow down the ball park better than "below 5ppm". For the ammonia test, I'd say if you see yellow or slightly off yellow, call it zero. Only if you see definite green would I call it as having ammonia worth talking about. Likewise for the nitrite, a light blue colour is zero. Before you reach the 0.25 step it may go slightly darker blue, but once you're into the lavenders and purples, you know for sure you have some.

Have another go and see if you can decide if you have some ammonia and/or nitrite or not, then at what ball park level. A step either side isn't much, but we should at least know if there is or isn't any.
 
Will be testing the water again tonight, did a 50% water change on Sunday and dosed with 2000 after removing the Purigen, no change in the fish and one did die on Monday which did NOT have the black spot, just seemed to be breathing fast and staying at the top of the water near the filter so guess he was also struggling with strength, died the next day, no visible problems with the fish to the naked eye. Will update with water parameters.

As an info the PH appears to be in the high 7's, around 7.8. Is this a cause for concern with Tetras?
 
What are your tank parameters? I'd do a full test and see if anything is off. If you aren't sure on the results might be worth getting your local fish shop to test for you too.

I've high ph 7.8 ish but soft water, lowish TDs and they seem happy in that.
 
I will test ammonia, nitrate and nitrite tonight and post results here, what else should I test? I can only test PH additionally to the other 3 with what I currently have but I can purchase further testing kits
 
Bare in mind that many medications reduce the dissolved oxygen levels so additional aeration is often needed. Sometimes these things just happen, probably some internal infection that spreads around, diagnosis is difficult and treatment often seem to be ineffective. Fish often show symptoms then die a day later so it is difficult to take immediate action.
 
start with those as they are the biggest trouble makers. If you do have ammonia/nitrite it suggests there is something wrong in the tank as a mature filter should cope unless you are very overstocked.
 
AqAdvisor says I'm not overstocked so hopefully can rule that out, I do have a couple fish that are perhaps too large for the tank but I got them when I wasn't in the know so much. it's 55L with 3 glowlight tetras (I started with more but not replacing due to them growing too large to keep a proper shoal) 4 Neon tetras (same as previous) and about 10 ember tetras.
 
Without actual diagnostics it's very difficult to assign a likely culprit (do you have a local public aquarium or vet that has specialized in ornamental fishes - I believe there is a list somewhere on the PFK site for UK vets) - necropsy might be helpful but even then there may be no definitive answer.

As your tests indicated measureable levels of ammonia & nitrite, also test your tap water (or whatever water mix you are using for water changes) & compare these readings to your tank water.

It's possible the ember tetra that died Monday did so in response to changing parametres after the 50% water change - when doing water changes larger than 25%, it's a good idea (ie conservative approach to fishkeeping) to ensure that tank & change water are similar in parametres.
Note you can get a copy of local water analysis from your water board/supplier - in some urban areas, water may come from several sources & if there is a switch from reservoir A to reservoir B just before you do a large water change, this can be problematic ... most healthy fish will manage changes (depending on extent), any compromised fish (parasites, bacterial, already compromised gill function from previous ammonia burns etc) may struggle.

Just as there are always algae spores in a tank, there are also always disease "spores" - fish have a normal "flora" of various parasites, bacteria, viruses etc, when fish become stressed, their immune system becomes depressed & that balance of normal flora is upset ... by the time we observe significant change in fish behavior, the disease is generally well advanced.

In the absence of any sort of diagnosis, just providing clean water & limiting stress (dim light rather than high light, quiet calm movement about the tank re vibrations etc) may be more beneficial than any medications (if you use medications find out the active ingredient & how it may affect water parametres (many sequester oxygen, many negatively impact filter bacteria) & fish (many "treatment" chemicals will trigger stress response in fish)).
Some medications claim to increase/improve slime coat in fishes ie the chemical actually irritates the fish which then increases slime coat production ... not sure this is really that great a benefit to a fish that is already struggling with a disease, especially one that is internal.
If you read "fish vet" studies on treating fish, daily water changes are always included in the treatment scheme, delve deeper & there will be studies on the activity of the treatment chemical under various pH, temp etc, efficacy of chemical against agents in fish in vivo, rather than in vitro.
Further some of the commonly sold medications may impact bacteria etc in water but have zero impact on actual bacteria in fishes ...

one did die on Monday which did NOT have the black spot, just seemed to be breathing fast and staying at the top of the water near the filter
Click to expand...
this usually indicates that fish was struggling for oxygen

I'm not familiar with the medications that have been suggested, a quick website check
eSHa EXIT - data sheet is from 2007 but doesn't actually identify the chemical agent, it's also very cheerfully optimistic ... compare their description of "velvet" and possibly treating 4-5 days for "exceptionally resistant species" and the details provided in this article Flagellates: Oodinium (I've read the cited articles & others, oodinium is not trivial to treat & success is often rather limited: the best "treatment" is maintaining fish under conditions where the disease is unlikely to occur in the first place; in contrast "Ich" responds very well to most treatments).

The Skeptical Aquarist is a site well worth your reading time :)

FWIW "black spots" on fish may occur when the organic load in the tank is high - not just the nitrogens which are commonly tested for, but dissolved organics from food waste, fish waste, plant waste, again 25% daily water changes are the treatment of choice.

eSHa 2000 - again a very optimistic document from 2007 (if they have a product that effectively treats all those listed conditions, I want to buy the company), again no listed active ingredients

Best of luck with whatever route you choose to follow :)
 
Ok so I seem to have misplaced my test comparison chart but here's my tap water vs tank water

Left on both in tap water, right is tank water.
Ammonia left, nitrite right.
gDYO3tvl.jpg



The right most tube is a little red stained from leaving a sample in there but hopefully can still see it well enough.

Nitrate
Tap water left right is tank water
kbLR3rSl.jpg
 
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It does look like the tank water is giving a slightly darker colour than the tap for ammonia?
 
Thats probably normal. These test kits have interactios with diferent ions. Its normal to have a slight ammonia reading when you actually dont have any at all.
 
I'd not be concerned about your tank vs tap parametres based on those test kit results - if your local shop will run samples, you might have them double check (as a measure of your test kits).
Fish load also seems just fine, you might sit & watch the tank (being as still as you can) & try & see if the other fish are subtly harassing the embers (once properly chastened, it doesn't take much for the dominant fishes to send the subordinates wherever) - certainly the glowlights & neons can be relatively boisterous.

API has a video series which includes the nitrogens, there will be a color test onscreen so you can reassure yourself of the results.
 
Odd one isn't it.. The fish are from what I would say is a very well maintained and reputable aquarium shop so I am confident they were OK when I got them. I was thinking to setup my old Fluval Chi as a quarantine tank and put the one black fish into it but I am concerned it being alone would only stress it out...
 
There is no room for acceptable ? ammonia and nitrite levels . Concentrate on the Nitrite ensure the test tubes are clean from previous residue, for all purposes now your tank is the quarantine tank so I would treat them there.Find the nearest reputable next Aquarium shop,have them double check your results.All media like Purigen,Carbon will take out medication. My opinion of Esha products they are good same for the API test kit.
 
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