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Xmas Moss growing "leggy"

Hi mate,
Normally legginess will be due to poor flow. I was too lazy to troll through the thread to figure out the flow rate. It looks like you have the bar in the right place but the throughput of the filter may be inadequate. The legginess is due to buildup of the hormone Ethylene in the tissues.

Cheers,
 
The filter is a Tetra EX400 rated at about 400lph and flow is pretty fast around the 35L tank. To be honest I'd be a bit concerned about the fish if it were any higher. The same batch of moss is doing fine in a vase with zero flow so could it be anything else? :?
 
Are all the conditions comparable between the two locations, lighting, temperature and so forth? You could try cutting a few fronds to see if the cut sections regrow with more compactness. This works with carpet type plants.

Cheers,
 
The other moss is just in a vase on the window sill, so unheated but lots of natural sunlight.
I had a quick read about elongation in aquatic plants and I think the conclusion in some cases was not enough O2 and too much CO2. So I'm now guessing maybe too much EasyCarbo or not enough light could be the cause? I can drop the light fitting a little lower to increase light levels a bit but maybe the Eheim 7 watt LED is just not bright enough?
 
Thanks Clive. Not sure the first article is all that applicable as it concerns waterlogged plants with roots. Can't open the second link at the moment, I'll try again later from my desktop machine.
This is the article I had a quick look at:

http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/114/4/1501.full.pdf

But not sure how applicable this is either. I really need a "Moss head" on this one I think! :lol:

I think I'll increase the light, reduce EasyCarbo and as you suggest give it a trim and see if the growth pattern changes.
 
I think you've completely misinterpreted the information in that article. What they were saying is that Rumex acetosa behaved differently than the general rule for wetland plants. R. acetosa is NOT an aquatic plant, although it is found near streams. It is a woodland plant that does not know how to live in water. Rumex palustis is a marsh plant and is very comfortable living in wetlands which are subject to flooding, but is not limited to only wetland areas. It is a much more flexible species.

In general, the response in wetland plants to flooding is to elongate the stems in order to reach the surface where CO2 levels are higher and where gas exchange is facilitated. Therefore, high levels of CO2 as well as high levels of O2 reduces elongation. Since the elongation response is enhanced by high concentrations of ethylene, lowering the ethylene concentration reduces the elongation. Improving the flow diffuses the ethylene more easily into the water and away from the plant and lowers the concentration buildup in the tissues.

The article describes the effects of flooding on two different types of plant. A flood tolerant plant R. palustris versus a flood intolerant plant R acetosa. Just look at the concluding remarks:
In summary, we found that ethylene and a low O2 concentration stimulated petiole elongation in the floodingtolerant plant, R. palustris. The response to a low O2 concentration was ethylene dependent and operated via a sensitization of the petiole tissue to ethylene. This increase in ethylene responsiveness was preceded by an increase in the expression leve1 of a gene coding for the putative R. palustris ethylene receptor (RP-ERSZ). In contrast, ethylene inhibited petiole elongation in the flooding-intolerant R. acetosa. This effect of ethylene could be counteracted by low O2 and high CO2 concentrations.
Click to expand...

What this means is that plants that are intolerant to flooding do not have a gene that tells them to elongate when they are flooded, so they stay submerged and drown. In these types of plants, increasing the CO2 and reducing the O2 then causes them to elongate. This is exactly the wrong type of response for living in a flooded area.

Elongation is a good thing for wetland plants. I think that is what people are missing. The ethylene buildup activates a gene which responds to ethylene and tells the plants to grow quickly above the rising flood waters to allow them to breath. Plants that do not have this gene just sit there and drown. That is WHY they are flood intolerant.

Cheers,
 
I didn't misinterpret the data, I just didn't see how this could relate to mosses which are so very different and don't have roots for example! We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Clive! :D If you have any Moss specific info relating to the problem let me know though ;)
 
try putting some of the leggy moss into the jar on the window.
 
Re: Xmas Moss growing "leggy"

Aqua sobriquet said:
I didn't misinterpret the data, I just didn't see how this could relate to mosses which are so very different and don't have roots for example! We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Clive! :D If you have any Moss specific info relating to the problem let me know though ;)
Click to expand...

How can you not understand how this relates to mosses? It's basically telling you why your moss is elongating ie it's trying to get above the water level so it can grow more efficiently.
 
Aqua sobriquet said:
I didn't misinterpret the data, I just didn't see how this could relate to mosses which are so very different and don't have roots for example! We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Clive! :D If you have any Moss specific info relating to the problem let me know though ;)
Click to expand...
The fact of being unable to see how the data relates to mosses directly contributes to misinterpretation. Why have you concluded that a moss is so much different than other wetland plants just because mosses lack roots? Why is having roots a more important factor to similarity than actually being aquatic, and having genes specifically dedicated to life underwater? By this logic hairgrass is more similar to the rye-grass in your lawn than it is to cryptocoryne simply because it is grass-like.

The article you linked to specifically shows how radically different two Rumex species behave even though they are both Rumex, and even though they both have roots. The author has demonstrated how much more important their individual responses to ethylene are, which contributes to their radical differences in tolerance to being flooded. That makes R. palustris similar to moss and makes R. acetosa completely dissimilar, regardless of roots.

Within the context of stem elongation, root morphology is not altogether relevant. How the plant responds to ethylene buildup in the tissues is the salient feature, so that's what we need to look at. In other types of behavioral investigations roots will be relevant, but not in this case. Aquatic plants share many more features in common with each other than with terrestrial plants, even if they look radically different, because the aquatic environment is so special that how the plant functions and solves the riddle of water is a more important, and is a more telling similarity.

It's OK if you disagree mate. No worries at all. I'm only commenting to help other readers get a clearer picture. 99% of aquatic plant websites in the world tell their users to add more light to get their plants to stop elongation. So people follow this advice because it seems reasonable and later, pandemonium breaks loose in their tanks. If, by some coincidence the plant does stop the elongation, other problems in the tank simply begin to mount.

Cheers,
 
ceg4048 said:
99% of aquatic plant websites in the world tell their users to add more light to get their plants to stop elongation.
Click to expand...

Thats the bit I needed!

Yesterday I lowered the the height of the light fitting and removed the plastic cover over the tank (I'll get a glass one made up). Today I increased the photo period by an hour as well. I'll trim a bit of moss and see how it grows.
 
Aqua sobriquet said:
ceg4048 said:
99% of aquatic plant websites in the world tell their users to add more light to get their plants to stop elongation.
Click to expand...

Thats the bit I needed!

Yesterday I lowered the the height of the light fitting and removed the plastic cover over the tank (I'll get a glass one made up). Today I increased the photo period by an hour as well. I'll trim a bit of moss and see how it grows.
Click to expand...


500 posts and this guy doesn't have a clue...honestly sometimes i wonder how we have survived as a species this long....Aqua to get it to be less leggy you defiantly do not need more light...
 
Johno2090 said:
500 posts and this guy doesn't have a clue...
Click to expand...
You really need to learn how to get your point across without being offensive Johno.

Clive says (above) "99% of aquatic plant websites in the world tell their users to add more light to get their plants to stop elongation"

And on this site it says Moss will grow leggy in low light so thats good enough for me unless you have some better evidence!

http://www.aquamoss.net/Introduction.htm
 
Re: Xmas Moss growing "leggy"

Aqua sobriquet said:
Johno2090 said:
500 posts and this guy doesn't have a clue...
Click to expand...
You really need to learn how to get your point across without being offensive Johno.

Clive says (above) "99% of aquatic plant websites in the world tell their users to add more light to get their plants to stop elongation"

And on this site it says Moss will grow leggy in low light so thats good enough for me unless you have some better evidence!

http://www.aquamoss.net/Introduction.htm
Click to expand...
enjoy your algae ;)
 
ceg4048 said:
What this means is that plants that are intolerant to flooding do not have a gene that tells them to elongate when they are flooded, so they stay submerged and drown. In these types of plants, increasing the CO2 and reducing the O2 then causes them to elongate. This is exactly the wrong type of response for living in a flooded area.
Click to expand...
Ceg, so aquatic plants will stop elongate if there is high CO2 and O2 in water? Or would be low O2 and high CO2? I'm confused.
 
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