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Do I need to add ferts with liquid co2

Jezmond

Jezmond

Seedling
Joined
6 Dec 2017
Messages
15
Location
Guisborough
I have a well stocked year old 125l tank with just sand substrate and 15 recently added plants which are a mix of crypts, java fern, anubias, swords, rotalia, cabomba and ludwigia peruviana. Lights are 2 X 20watt t8 and 1 Arcadia stretch 24watt led. I'm adding JBL ferropol weekly and 2 ml dennerle carbo elixir a day and I've added JBL and dennerle root balls and tropica root capsules. 50% weekly water change. Nitrates are around 20-40ppm phosphate is 4ppm. Most plants growing with a bit of melting and some dying leaves which would have thought expect ed as they settle in, but I'm getting what looks like staghorn algae.

Not sure what to do.

Either reduce light? (which I thought was low light already)

Add more nitrogen/phosphate? (but tap water is 2ppm phosphate and plenty of nitrates in tank from fish)

Add more or less liquid co2?

Or something else..?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
 
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If it's a new tank in the last 4 weeks, then do nothing extra apart from maintenance, removal of dead leaves and water changes. Just wait for them to bounce back.
 
OK. Thanks for your reply. I'll prune the affected leaves and carry on with the same.
 
Thanks for the interest.

I set the tank up a year ago with the fish and some easy plants, crypts, elodea, swords etc. It was great for about 7 months and then I overdid it with the photoperiod and it got overgrown with hair algae BBA and then BGA. In the end I removed most of the plants and just had the light on moonlight setting for a few hours a day. After about 3 months the algae gave up and then I moved house shortly after. I managed to keep the water and get the tank up and running without having to cycle it again. That was early September. I let things settle for a few weeks then started adding plants. Last plants went in 4 weeks ago and I've been adding the liquid carbon since then. I've had lights on for 6 hours for most of this time and upped it slowly to 6 and a half using a timer.

I'll try and get some images uploaded this evening.
 
@Zeus, @rebel Hi, here's some pictures

whole tank

IMG_3544.jpg


The Rotala was the last to go in a month ago. Its tripled in size, 4 stems grew to the top of the tank which I replanted, the rest are nearly there.
IMGP7702.jpg

Amazon Sword. The algae is only as bad as this on a couple of leaves but most have slight signs of it.
IMGP7708.jpg


Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
 
Jezmond

Thanks for the pics, Im no expert myself, was hoping another more experienced member would read your thread and help too.
But heres my thoughts

You have a low tech tank, which your using dennerle carbo elixir (LCO2) which technically make it high tech but not an issue, best to add the LCO2 just before lights on as has the best impact then on plant growth.

Your testing your water, general test kits are very unreliable at hobbyist level and classed as a waste of money and the results are not to be trusted. Most of us on here dont use test kits at all.

50% water change is probably on the high side for your tank - but will do no harm. Once the plants start growing they will add to your biological filtration.

Your not adding ferts, I would and do in my low tech tanks, yes your fish will be supply as source of nitrates but the plants also need Potassium for healthy growth too and not sure if the fish waste produces any.Plus any nutrients the root balls and tabs add are slow release and your substrate will be adding nothing.

I would add ferts for the small expense, you could buy the All in one products off the shelf and basically pay for a lot of water and little ferts or make your own which is much cheaper and easy to do. Good threads to read All-in-one Macro & micro fertiliser and AIO for low tech DIY. If you dont want to DIY the ferts TNC complete is one product which many use with great results.

I good plan is not to focus on aglea on the plants and how to treat it. But focus on getting the plants healthy and growing so adding a good source of NPK and micro nutrients makes sense IMO.

Hope thats some help

Zeus

Keep us updated on how it goes
 
Thanks Zeus

I've ordered some TNC complete. I'm pretty sure I'm lacking potassium. So hopefully that will take care of it. I don't want to get into a routine of using powders because I want to be able to be away from home without any issues.

I'm also pretty sure I've got too much light. I saw a few threads over the weekend and they seem to say that 2 T8 tubes is giving me 50 par plus the extra LED another 15 par.

The same threads are also suggesting medium light starts at 30 par, so if they're right I'm well into medium light and so probably need pressurised CO2 and NPK..

This seems to be evident as the algae is growing most in the area where the light is most focussed.

What I don't understand though is how 2 X 20 watt T8 tubes with a combined output of around 2000 lux gives around 50 PAR but 1 24 watt LED with a similar output of around 2000 lux only gives 15 PAR.

Hopefully the changes will help.

I'm also thinking about doing a bleach dip for the most effected plants. They're stem plants so getting them out and back in shouldn't be an issue I'm just not sure if they might be worse off as they aren't that healthy.
 
I don't have any useful input really but following with interest as I'm dosing TNC liquid carbon and also TNC complete on my tank which I flooded on Saturday.

From what I read about the ferts before deciding to go with them it did seem best to also dose the complete alongside the liquid carbon.
 
Clive

So just increase the LCO2 dose you think his ferts was fine?

Danny said:
TNC complete on my tank which I flooded on Saturday.
Click to expand...

depends also on your substrate, if just sand or gravel I would dose Ferts, plants cant grow well with out ferts, the extra CO2 from the LCO2 should increase the grow

Zeus
 
Thanks ceg

The recommended dose is 1-3 ml a day and I've been adding 1.5. I'll increase it to 3.
 
Zeus. said:
Clive

So just increase the LCO2 dose you think his ferts was fine?



depends also on your substrate, if just sand or gravel I would dose Ferts, plants cant grow well with out ferts, the extra CO2 from the LCO2 should increase the grow

Zeus
Click to expand...
Well, I don't really know if NPK is fine or not.

Jezmond claims to know the NPK concentrations. On what this information is based it's not really clear. This may later prove to be inaccurate, but at this moment, every symptom reported, including photos indicates a CO2 shortfall.

It's entirely possible that the CO2 shortage is also masking an NPK shortage. We won't know until the CO2 problem is fixed....

Cheers,
 
I've tested for nitrate and phosphate using API kits. I know they're not accurate and give different readings depending how you hold them up to the light but the nitrate is definitely orange and gets darker throughout the week so I thought that means there's enough there.

I got a phosphate kit last week and tested the tank water which went blue straight away, it seemed to be showing 4ppm on the test card. I tested the tap water which went blue straight away but not as dark as the tank water so I'm thinking this indicates the phosphate level in the tank.is going up during the week after the water change.

Not very scientific or accurate I know. But possibly an indication that the N and P levels are going up during the days after water changes.

I haven't tested for potassium but the JBL ferropol which I've been adding contains it as does the dennerle liquid carbon I'm using. I don't know if it's enough or what level. There are a few pinholes on some leaves and the ludwigia leaves are going yellow. This made me think K levels might be low.

I've reduced the light level to just the T8's and should receive the TNC complete tommorow. I plan on doing a 50% water change, removing the effected leaves and I'll up the dose of co2 and start adding the TNC.
 
True. I suppose I could try just upping the co2 and see how it goes.

Any thoughts on how long it should take to see an improvement?
 
As I'm sure you realize, test kit readings are not a reliable source of information. They really are a waste of money and I strongly advise to abandon them because they will always lead you astray.

In any case it takes a lot longer to get out of trouble than it does to get into trouble. We cannot predict how long it takes to recover because we do not know the extent of the CO2 shortage. We only know that there is a shortage. It may be a few days or a few weeks to recover depending on the extent of the deficiency and the amount of extra CO2 being added. I do not really know what the active ingredient of dennerle carbo elixir is. I assume it is Gluteraldehye which would be the same as all the other brands such as Excel and so forth. In any case browsing around the web it seems expensive. Aquaessentials sells an equivalent product https://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/ne...Path=544_208&zenid=co7jn793uldlpcguttqt6apgt2
Have a look and see if this is less money.

Also be advised that you may have to use more than the bottle suggested amount. Liquid products are not as effective as gas so you really need to experiment in your tank to determine best dosing.

Cheers,
 
Thanks Clive

I agree that test kits are a waste of money in one sense. But as a beginner probably necessary for cycling tanks and helpful in understanding the chemistry in aquarium water. It'd be great if they sold much smaller kits at a fraction of the price.

One thing I've learnt in the hobby is to be patient and not rush into things. It can be expensive and disappointing.

The goal with this tank is to get a nice habitat for my fish foremost. If plants die and algae turn up my fish don't care even if I do. I'd also love the plants to look ace and be lush. Just having sand substrate makes it difficult as posts on forums deal with different substrates.

I'm planning on setting up a new tank soon as my first serious planted tank and I'm hopefully following my own advice as being patient and learning as much as possible before I do.

In a way I'm hoping that doing things really lean with sand substrate will accelerate my understanding of the light/co2/nutrient balance. For this tank I can take the hits so long as the fish are happy.

Having said that since I reduced the light a few days ago my fish are definitely happier! Algae growth seems to have slowed or stopped also.

The dennerle carbo elixir as far as I know doesn't contain glute. In hindsight I would have just gone for the straight glute based LCO2 as the combination of micro ferts from the ferropol might be causing an iron overdose as I'm getting a film on the water surface.

I found a web based company who sell big bottles of Excell out their industrial unit which is nearby so after delivery costs it might work out cost effective.

Ferropol is nearly used up so I'm thinking I might be best off looking for an alternative.

Also thinking of DIY co2 but again fish are the priority.

For now I'm happy to overdose the dennerle LCO2 to get rid of it and remove the micro aspect, but I've got inverts. 5 amanos, 5 RCS, 2 nerites and a bamboo shrimp which is awesome. From reading people seem to say it's Ok to overdose LC02 but it may harm inverts. Any thoughts?

Many thanks.
 
If toxicity is a concern, then reducing light, adding a complete fert and continuing with water changes are the safest course of action.

Liquid co2 can be toxic at higher levels but as with any compound it will depend on each species concerned; including algae. Hard to generalise but slow changes are no doubt safer.
 
Hi all,
Jezmond said:
Also thinking of DIY co2 but again fish are the priority.
Click to expand...
Jezmond said:
whole tank

img_3544-jpg.jpg
Click to expand...
You try the <"Duckweed Index">.

It is just a simple technique where you use the health of a floating plant (originally Duckweed (Lemna minor), but I usually use Amazon Frogbit (<"Limnobium laevigatum">) now) to indicate the nutrient status of the tank.

It uses a floating plant to take CO2 out of the equation (aerial leaves have access to 400ppm of atmospheric CO2), and then you only add nutrients when plant colour and health declines.

cheers Darrel
 
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