Edvet
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Reconstituters....
- Thread starter HiNtZ
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My PH drops about 1.2 to 6.5
Always played on my mind this did - some months were good, other's not so..... when I thought about why this was it coincided more or less with the first week of a new mix of trace. I hate seeing those little blue/green balls... there always seems to be so many of them and always on the top.
Is the chelate for the Fe in my mix for example the same as the one that binds the other metals?
This was going to be the next micro mix I was going to try.
I'm 4 weeks + into no water change with my daily micro dosing, (micro daily level listed way above, copper is in this mix, have dosed extra MgNO₃ and KH₂PO₄), GDA on the glass and BBA increasing but I'm not seeing any signs of toxicity, I may or may not have accumulation happening, however my equilibrium pH is now 7.95 up from 7.8 (no extra KH added, inert substrate), my other tank (getting same treatment, ert substrate) has risen by the same 0.15 points, so over 4 weeks the chemistry has slightly changed, the daily micro solution is acidic at pH3.2. I run electrocoagulation at night so I am ruminating that hydroxides may be accumulating (without testing, no idea).
GDA was a sure bet the next day for me after adding Mg.
Here's todays pic with some closer up shots. I'm actually noticing deficiencies already and some thread algae on my fissidens!!! Wasn't there yesterday. NO3/PO4/K there is enough of for sure. I'm definitely lacking something but when I add traces and even quadruple the doses I show different problems. I promised myself I wouldn't give up!
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=1tfomzuMnE4ps3kAPhREPMUE5hf7ti0Fm
X3NiTH
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Electrocoagulation
This thesis - Removal of Trace Heavy Metals from Drinking Water - Joe Heffron
Also this thesis - Combined electrooxidation and electrocoagulation process for the treatment of municipal wastewater - Mohammed Sajeed Farooqui
Mines a DIY affair, two pieces of stainless steel mesh separated by some PVC mesh (gutter guard) so the electrode distances from each other are 2.5-3mm. Power supply is straight 12vDC @ 2.5A, (pulsed reversed polarity in the KHz range would be great, but I've not incorporated that yet as I don't have a suitable circuit design, the cost of a dedicated pulsed power supply is out of the question). It's cobbled together with cable ties and hot glue (hot glue used to isolate wire connection to each electrode from the water so it doesn't corrode and break the connection, additional to this I'm not using copper core cable to make the connections) in a sandwich and suction cupped to the side wall of the tank under the spraybar (produced gasses are circulated quickly around the tank). I run the device overnight on a timer that switches on for 10 intervals of 6 minutes each spread over the night, first interval is half an hour before lights off (so I can monitor functionality) and the last interval is half an hour before Micro autodosing happens and one hour before lights on.
What I hope to achieve is 'Increased oxygen saturation levels overnight', I see this as pearling at lights on in the morning, this is additional to aeration provided by an air pump overnight to off gas CO₂, the tank reaches atmospheric CO₂ equilibrium before each injection phase.
I also want to 'Increase the removal of metals from the water to mitigate against the effects of accumulation', because there is daily micro addition (not specifically chelated but any combination with fulvic and humic acids that are part of the micro mixture in the dosing bottle is advantageous), there should be a degree of accumulation, hopefully coagulation and flocculation happens naturally when unchelated metals bump into each other and therefore use of this device should increase that chance considerably.
Ideally a reset of the trace elements to very low levels before each day's addition would be great. Only evidence I have if this is working (and its anecdotal at best) is that over 4 weeks of no water changes daily micro, daily fish food, bio carbon every two days, addition of 10ppm NO₃ (from MgNO₃) and 6ppm PO₄ (from KH₂PO₄) at week two, that in this time my TDS has risen from 170ppm to 220ppm and atmospheric CO₂ equilibrium point has risen from pH7.8 - pH7.95.
My Buce are still throwing out new leaves and showing no signs of deficiency/antagonism or toxicity (given their 'Sensitivity to Metals'). My Crypt Balansae has turned into a weed and the BBA on it is getting a bit out of control, I also include the M.Pteropus Windelov prothalium growing on the Bogwood being out of control also as it's getting to about 4cm long and suspended in the water column all day by oxygen bubbles. Water is still crystal clear. Guaranteed that when I do a water change I'm going to empty the filter because it's going to be full of flocculant (mulm), it was the last time I had a look in there.
DIY Twinstar 'More Science than Sorcery!'
Electrocoagulation
Mines a DIY affair, two pieces of stainless steel mesh separated by some PVC mesh (gutter guard) so the electrode distances from each other are 2.5-3mm. Power supply is straight 12vDC @ 2.5A,
Is this anything like those oxy cleaning devices? Can't remember what they're called...
X3NiTH
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Yes it will bind with the other traces and not just the Iron, EDDHA is an environmentally persistent chelate it will remain bound to the iron throughout all pH ranges you are likely to encounter in an aquarium (and beyond). Very little degradation in this chelate, because it's so stable it will accumulate if you were to add it daily. I wouldn't use it the way I'm currently running my tank, DTPA works better for me because it will break down due to photodegradation (sunlight will eliminate it in 30mins) and reach its half life potential when the pH hits 7.5. In 24hr Fe titration testing (JBL test kit) the difference in readings I see are that the Fe Gluconate is gone within 24hrs while the assumed remaining Fe is Fe DTPA that reads about half its dose (0.025ppm, the JBL test barely reads the level). Regarding the chelates I have used (not used EDDHA) this is what can be said of them.
Fe Gluconate - can last as little as two hours after dosing, least stable above pH6, similar to EDTA
Fe EDTA - stable to pH6, degrades above pH6, half life is at pH7, total degradation above ph7.6
Fe DTPA - stable to near pH7, degradation above pH7, half life is at pH7.5, total degradation at pH8.5.
0.0001% = 1ppm. The volume of the contents of bottle represents your million parts per million, the percentages given will be in relation to the volume in the bottle, the resultant ppm dosed into the tank is dependant on the dose instruction in this case 10ml/100L hence the iron percentage of 0.24% becomes 0.024ppm in the 100L. Flourish Trace for instance has a little different dosing instruction 5ml/80L, the bottle percentage reads for Cu 0.0032% (32ppm) but the actual dose into that 80L is 0.002ppm.
This is Flourish Traces Guaranteed Analysis and its adjusted figures for what the dose instructions deliver 5ml/80L.
B - 0.0028% - Per Dose 0.00175 ppm
Co - 0.00003% - Per Dose 0.000018 ppm
Cu - 0.0032% - Per Dose 0.002 ppm
Mn - 0.0085% - Per Dose 0.0053 ppm
Mo - 0.0003% - Per Dose 0.0001875 ppm
Zn - 0.0169% - Per Dose 0.0105 ppm
Ni - 0.000002% - Per Dose 0.00000188 ppm
Rb - 0.000008% - Per Dose 0.000005 ppm
V - 0.000002% - Per Dose 0.00000125 ppm
Here's my Micro recipe and preparation instructions if you are interested.
500ml Micro Mix @ 1ml/10L -
Fe 0.15 ppm
Mn 0.05 ppm
Zn 0.04 ppm
B 0.03 ppm
Cu 0.002 ppm
Mo 0.0015 ppm
Ni 0.0005 ppm
This mix includes a liquid Fe Gluconate component, 'Grow Microbe-Lift Plants Fe' (bottle instructions 1ml/100L - 0.1 mg/L and the solution in the bottle is pH 3.05).
The preparation water is RO/DI.
I acidified the water beforehand using Ascorbic acid (I had this already and should have used it with the previous 5L preparation noted in my last post) and checked the pH of the solution before adding the salts. At the addition of each salt there was vigorous mixing to achieve near full dissolution (salt crystals disappearing on visual inspection after each shake of the bottle) then the pH probe was put in the resultant mixture and the reading was allowed to stabilise for 5 mins before it was noted down. The following list shows the respective weights of the salts addition and the resultant pH of the mixture, the Mo, Cu and Ni component is derived from individual pre prepared solutions (100ml containers dosing at 10ml/5L for Mo 0.0015, Cu 0.002, Ni 0.0005).
500ml Micro dosed @ 1ml/10L, Preparation as follows -
450ml RO/DI + 0.25g Ascorbic Acid - pH 3.2
+ 0.77g MnSO4.H2O (Mn 0.05 mg/L) - pH 3.42
+ 0.9g ZnSO4.7H2O (Zn 0.04 mg/L) - pH 3.5
+ 0.86g H3BO3 (B 0.03 mg/L) - pH 3.5
+ 0.019g Na2MoO4.2H2O (Mo 0.0015 mg/L) - pH 3.6
+ 0.04g CuSO4.5H2O (Cu 0.002 mg/L) - pH 3.68
+ 0.0113g NiSO4.6H2O (Ni 0.0005 mg/L) - pH 3.74
At this point the resulting mixture is clear with zero precipitation. The addition of the Fe increases the opacity of the mixture.
+ 50ml Fe Gluconate (pH 3.05 - Fe 0.1 mg/L) - pH 3.35 (Green tint to the mix)
+ 2.275g FeDTPA 11% (Fe 0.05mg/L) - pH 3.19 (Brown Green tint to the mix)
X3NiTH
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Söchting Oxydator - Nope that's a passive device using H₂O₂, but H₂O₂ will be a reaction byproduct using Electrocoagulation but unfortunately it's not enough to kill BBA.
Depurator - Yeah I suppose.
The above papers I posted were enough to get me to at least try the Ghetto version of a Twinstar device but obviously without the box of sorcery that comes along with that. In addition I'm not paying a premium by using Platinum coated Titanium for the electrodes instead using Stainless Steel (repurposed mesh that moss came on). I'm not hiding the science behind a Patent which in Twinstars case will be for the sorcery box (reversing pulsed electrolysis with a 'SPECIAL' timing sequence), and it will remain sorcery until someone plugs one into an oscilloscope.
I'm running two of them, one in each tank, the 12L tank has one half the size (repeated bending a few times until a full size piece off moss mesh snapped in half).
X3NiTH
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All the chelate species breakdown due to photodegradation and are ethylene based and thus if made to become unstable that ethylene will be a component of the breakdown products. Ethylene is a mediator in apoptic cell death in plants (plants with their feet in soil may be protected from this to a degree but those with roots in the water column will see it all). Accumulation of ethylene, nope not going there........again? (I may have been there already as I was using UV when KH was zero and I had that wacky week after EDTA micro dosing accident described earlier, never used it since). I'm not using UV and the amount of Fe DTPA I'm using is low so if I have any accumulation of ethylene I'm hoping electrocoagulation is taking care of it (again 4 weeks into no water change and 0.05ppm of FeDTPA is added daily).
Addendum to post above about my micro mix. It waffles briefly about something 5L, this was a copy paste of a post I made on the BarrReport in the Custom Micro Thread and forgot to remove that part for here (the story goes.... I made 5L of micro without pre acidifying the water and the zinc addition turned it into a pulped paper consistency, acidifying afterwards then oxidised it and it dropped out of solution).
Addendum to post above about my micro mix. It waffles briefly about something 5L, this was a copy paste of a post I made on the BarrReport in the Custom Micro Thread and forgot to remove that part for here (the story goes.... I made 5L of micro without pre acidifying the water and the zinc addition turned it into a pulped paper consistency, acidifying afterwards then oxidised it and it dropped out of solution).
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Hi all,
Best of luck with the experimentation.
cheers Darrel
OK., that is the <"context that I've come upon it before">.
Best of luck with the experimentation.
cheers Darrel
1/12
https://drive.google.com/open?id=16Glu3LPYq9hows6ntGVz0xkxIXvwtfib
The Hygro has rolled up its leaves over night more or less! I woke up to them like it this morning. Now I'm baffled. The tank hasn't had anything at all in 4 days (in the sense that no daily additions were made as in EI)
Could it be the Fe I added on the 28th showing problems only now?
Is this actually true deficiency?
https://drive.google.com/open?id=16Glu3LPYq9hows6ntGVz0xkxIXvwtfib
The Hygro has rolled up its leaves over night more or less! I woke up to them like it this morning. Now I'm baffled. The tank hasn't had anything at all in 4 days (in the sense that no daily additions were made as in EI)
Could it be the Fe I added on the 28th showing problems only now?
Is this actually true deficiency?
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X3NiTH
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It might be, it might not be, I know that's too vague an answer but as long as all the elements for plant growth are present (and you know exactly what you have added) either something has bottomed out (deficiency) or something is in too great a ratio to something else preventing uptake (antagonism). I'm leaning more to the 'might be' if you're front loading P, it could bottom out with persistent Fe to react with.
One of my Buce leaves curled its sides yesterday, same as your Hygro, I'm coming up again to the end of the second week of no nitrate or phosphate dosing, there's three large emperor tetras in the tank so nitrate could be low but it will not be zero, the phosphate on the other hand that's likely to bottom out, adding N and P uncurled it a couple of weeks ago, I'll dose tomorrow (I'll test for P presence before I do, I may test N also).
If you are doubting the ferts (and I did before I eventually went DIY) I would change to something of known commercial success with less persistence and with stated known values (on the bottle) for everything in it that you could dose every day, (that'll be a bottle of flourish comprehensive and a bottle of flourish trace, just for testing the effects of unchelated traces and gluconated iron though).
If you want precision and stability, come up with a definitive balanced dosing regime and stick to it without deviation for at least a month, It's easier to paint when the canvas isn't moving.
Thanks, I'm gonna need it, I have my water ready for the change anytime but it's going to be used for a planned emergency. Emergency because we have a little carpet moth problem that just won't go away and planned because I've allowed Premethrin to be used in the room where the nexus is (I know Superbad, I'm still drawing air through my teeth about it but the wife's got the humongous spray can already), I have no shrimp to worry about but I'm still gonna seal the tanks up and put the airpump in a box with a face mask organics filter cartridge cobbled to it so it can get air clean air. It's gonna be a total tank gut and substrate change which will give me a chance to really reduce/eliminate(wish) some BBA in the hard to get spots.
:-/
One of my Buce leaves curled its sides yesterday, same as your Hygro, I'm coming up again to the end of the second week of no nitrate or phosphate dosing, there's three large emperor tetras in the tank so nitrate could be low but it will not be zero, the phosphate on the other hand that's likely to bottom out, adding N and P uncurled it a couple of weeks ago, I'll dose tomorrow (I'll test for P presence before I do, I may test N also).
If you are doubting the ferts (and I did before I eventually went DIY) I would change to something of known commercial success with less persistence and with stated known values (on the bottle) for everything in it that you could dose every day, (that'll be a bottle of flourish comprehensive and a bottle of flourish trace, just for testing the effects of unchelated traces and gluconated iron though).
If you want precision and stability, come up with a definitive balanced dosing regime and stick to it without deviation for at least a month, It's easier to paint when the canvas isn't moving.
Thanks, I'm gonna need it, I have my water ready for the change anytime but it's going to be used for a planned emergency. Emergency because we have a little carpet moth problem that just won't go away and planned because I've allowed Premethrin to be used in the room where the nexus is (I know Superbad, I'm still drawing air through my teeth about it but the wife's got the humongous spray can already), I have no shrimp to worry about but I'm still gonna seal the tanks up and put the airpump in a box with a face mask organics filter cartridge cobbled to it so it can get air clean air. It's gonna be a total tank gut and substrate change which will give me a chance to really reduce/eliminate(wish) some BBA in the hard to get spots.
:-/
I think one thing I have noticed is that going lean on the N & P works better for me than EI. R. rotundifolia always seems much bigger and more healthy when at least N is low.
I'll definietely grab a couple bottles of flourish and give it a go. Gonna see this through to the end of the week and see where my N & P levels end up. N seems to be sustaining itself at 5ppm naturally. P is still just detectable but I feel I'll run out by Monday/Tuesday.
My plan for next week which I will (try) and stick to will be just commercial trace dosing. No N & P, but maybe a little K to top it up.
BBA is getting VERY fluffy by the way. I can see it increasing. :/
Today: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dkWpe-O0uhQk87GPXv-YGhCsHMcdtUiu
Think I might have dropped out on CO2 earlier in the week, causing the hygro leaves to roll up. It would make some sense as it is the old leaves and it happened very quickly.
Think I might have dropped out on CO2 earlier in the week, causing the hygro leaves to roll up. It would make some sense as it is the old leaves and it happened very quickly.
3/12: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1y7aZ9TIfdNOtrbt-BUEbt0sJ_VfcYgRN
Rotala standing straighter. I pinched the curled leaves of the hygro, stellatus is looking pretty reem. The rest is a bit meh. The crypts never worry me - they're quite hardy.
Tempted to get some K in there though. Only 5ppm, just to see what (if any) changes occur. It must need some.... I only started with 7ppm 5 days ago.
What do you think? Add some K?
Rotala standing straighter. I pinched the curled leaves of the hygro, stellatus is looking pretty reem. The rest is a bit meh. The crypts never worry me - they're quite hardy.
Tempted to get some K in there though. Only 5ppm, just to see what (if any) changes occur. It must need some.... I only started with 7ppm 5 days ago.
What do you think? Add some K?
X3NiTH
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I would have left the curled leaves on so that if you dose anything and it unfurls then you found your deficient element, if nothing happens and more leaves curl then move on to another element. A few extra ppm of K won't do any harm, I'd dose it via KH₂PO₄ because if any things likely to react (Fe) and bottom out quicker it's likely the P so it wouldn't harm to add it.
I have more curling today and a couple of small Buce leaves melted. I am seeing same symptoms in both tanks now, (infrequent trace dosing (got an infrequent dose yesterday, melt today) and daily trace). I dosed some MgNO3 for the N, if there's no sign of improvement by tomorrow I'll dose P via KH₂PO₄. Topped up the tanks with RO/DI last night to account for 4 weeks of evaporation and the pH has appeared to have settled back down to nearer where it's equilibrium point of 7.8 should be. I emptied and refilled my trace (flushed lines also) it was nearly empty and there was a little bacterial growth in there, using a smaller amount this time decanted from the fridge so it doesn't have months to go off. I tested for both NO₃ and P, NO₃ via the API titration kit read about 10-20ppm (it's lying through its teeth of course because when I've calibrated the kit before it gave me a 40ppm+ reading for a 10ppm calibration value), so N would appear to be very low (adjusting for the calibrated values) but non zero. The P gave me a perceptible colour change indicating P is still present but it's Indicating the lowest value readable hence dosing it tomorrow. If neither of these things changes the symptoms, I believe my best option is to perform the water change to reset everything to avoid me sending ratios everywhere by dosing this and that.
I have more curling today and a couple of small Buce leaves melted. I am seeing same symptoms in both tanks now, (infrequent trace dosing (got an infrequent dose yesterday, melt today) and daily trace). I dosed some MgNO3 for the N, if there's no sign of improvement by tomorrow I'll dose P via KH₂PO₄. Topped up the tanks with RO/DI last night to account for 4 weeks of evaporation and the pH has appeared to have settled back down to nearer where it's equilibrium point of 7.8 should be. I emptied and refilled my trace (flushed lines also) it was nearly empty and there was a little bacterial growth in there, using a smaller amount this time decanted from the fridge so it doesn't have months to go off. I tested for both NO₃ and P, NO₃ via the API titration kit read about 10-20ppm (it's lying through its teeth of course because when I've calibrated the kit before it gave me a 40ppm+ reading for a 10ppm calibration value), so N would appear to be very low (adjusting for the calibrated values) but non zero. The P gave me a perceptible colour change indicating P is still present but it's Indicating the lowest value readable hence dosing it tomorrow. If neither of these things changes the symptoms, I believe my best option is to perform the water change to reset everything to avoid me sending ratios everywhere by dosing this and that.
I would have left the curled leaves on so that if you dose anything and it unfurls then you found your deficient element, if nothing happens and more leaves curl then move on to another element. A few extra ppm of K won't do any harm, I'd dose it via KH₂PO₄ because if any things likely to react (Fe) and bottom out quicker it's likely the P so it wouldn't harm to add it.
I have more curling today and a couple of small Buce leaves melted. I am seeing same symptoms in both tanks now, (infrequent trace dosing (got an infrequent dose yesterday, melt today) and daily trace). I dosed some MgNO3 for the N, if there's no sign of improvement by tomorrow I'll dose P via KH₂PO₄. Topped up the tanks with RO/DI last night to account for 4 weeks of evaporation and the pH has appeared to have settled back down to nearer where it's equilibrium point of 7.8 should be. I emptied and refilled my trace (flushed lines also) it was nearly empty and there was a little bacterial growth in there, using a smaller amount this time decanted from the fridge so it doesn't have months to go off. I tested for both NO₃ and P, NO₃ via the API titration kit read about 10-20ppm (it's lying through its teeth of course because when I've calibrated the kit before it gave me a 40ppm+ reading for a 10ppm calibration value), so N would appear to be very low (adjusting for the calibrated values) but non zero. The P gave me a perceptible colour change indicating P is still present but it's Indicating the lowest value readable hence dosing it tomorrow. If neither of these things changes the symptoms, I believe my best option is to perform the water change to reset everything to avoid me sending ratios everywhere by dosing this and that.
In the past I waited and waited for the leaves to unfurl and they never did so I pinch them off these days. Pretty sure now that it must be a blip with CO2 (I was messing around with it earlier in the week).
My NO3 has gone up and PO4 has stayed at 1ppm. I've added 5ppm of K (K2SO4) so will see the next couple days. I must say I have been very tempted to dose P but restrained myself. I've got no GSA so until that moment, I won't.
Going to water change maybe Thursday night I think then dose very small amount (1/4 dose) of commercial trace daily with 2ppm K, again with no N and no P.
Do you have a journal about the tank you are experimenting with?
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X3NiTH
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Trying to dose it directly will lead to issues, because the weight is so marginal for the dose and accuracy of weight is paramount it's easier to weigh a larger dose and prepare a solution that you can then decant a volume of liquid that would give you the ppm needed. I used 100ml bottles with the salt weighing enough to give me a solution that is dosed at 10ml - 5L for my target dose (1ml - 500ml is how much I use for traces that I make up and store).
I could weigh out smaller amounts but I want accuracy and the scales become less accurate the lower the weight goes (the scale is 0.01g resolution with an accuracy of +/- 0.01g so larger amounts better accuracy).
I do but I haven't kept it up to date, you can access it through the link in my sig, I lost enthusiasm when the tank went bang.
