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Did something eat these?

No idea, I’ve occasionally changed massive amounts of water when rescaping parts of the tank, more often through successive water changes rather than a “continuous water change” set up ... if I’ve left fish in the tank, then I’ll space these water changes - I prefer to leave the water very “clear” rather than waiting for the filter to clear away any sediment or fines

The plants don’t seem to care :cool:
 
More relevant to the first post ;)

is this plant growth that is recent enough to have only experienced “improved aquarium conditions” - or does it include growth from when the tank has experienced much more algae (and less healthy plant growth)?



btw my 30C has become a jungle again so I’ll try to remember to look at growth in different areas to assess whether the (completely shite) flow follows @Ray hypotheses :)

(I expect that all I’ll really be able to conclude from a cursory visual exam is that the older, shaded growth has suffered)
 
@alto,

Thanks for remembering my terms for conditions of my tank - hahah!

Yes the growth you are seeing consists of:

1) healthy growth
2) increased excel dosage
3) decreased excel dosage and potentially tinkering with co2 and gas exchange
4) deficiency/dying leaves
5) excel dosage finished and co2 left alone
6) healthy plant

Josh
 
I seem to have broke my quote mechanic on my cell phone here - @alto ... tag it is with your quote below!
btw my 30C has become a jungle again so I’ll try to remember to look at growth in different areas to assess whether the (completely shite) flow follows @Ray hypotheses :)



That will be neat - post it here. Do you have the same species sprinkled throughout?

I will say that when @Ray explained that to me, I felt calm inside. Suddenly, the system seemed more natural and fluid instead of a sterile one-size-fits all and it helped me relax :).

Josh
 
That will be neat - post it here. Do you have the same species sprinkled throughout?
It’s a 30C
how much “throughout” can there be
:lol:

7ECA5CE0-FA2B-477D-9F1A-CC656FEBD89F.jpeg
 
I will say that when @Ray explained that to me, I felt calm inside. Suddenly, the system seemed more natural and fluid instead of a sterile one-size-fits all and it helped me relax :).
Wow - this adds new depths to my coffee break phone posts! Do you offer a LinkedIn endorsements service too?!

Thinking about this some more a stem will also be adapting along it’s entire length as it grows up and the PAR value increases closer to the surface... That could be 30 PAR at the bottom and 100 at the top, which is impressive versatility. But some kinds of plants might well melt if you suddenly move them from 30 to 100 PAR.

Melting is weird - I just last Thursday planted a pot of tissue culture Tropica Pogostemon Erectus into my 17l low tech Betta tank exactly where my test stem of the same species is happily growing and the whole lot melted. Infuriating. No idea why, maybe bad conditions during transport or storage?

@alto - nice jungle :)
 
More relevant to the first post ;)

is this plant growth that is recent enough to have only experienced “improved aquarium conditions” - or does it include growth from when the tank has experienced much more algae (and less healthy plant growth)?



btw my 30C has become a jungle again so I’ll try to remember to look at growth in different areas to assess whether the (completely shite) flow follows @Ray hypotheses :)

(I expect that all I’ll really be able to conclude from a cursory visual exam is that the older, shaded growth has suffered)
It’s a 30C
how much “throughout” can there be
:lol:

View attachment 151694

You got me there - I must familiarize myself with these terms 60p, 30c etc... just assumed it was substantial 🤣.


Josh
 
Now you got me thinking about water changes; in many ways, I think it is like any other tool in the hobby.

For example, if your anubias is covered in algae due to unhealthy conditions, then you fix those conditions. What do you do?
1) Treat the old leaves and hope you don't treat them to harshly and destroy the tissues, plunk 'em back in.
2) cut all of the old leaves?
3) cut the leaves off one at a time as new ones pop out?
All the way hoping the rhizome isn't ridden with spores and the plant can recover?

So the use of the water change should be relative to the situation. In other words, generalized notions of change lots of water or change little to no water are well simply that - generalizations.

I would say that some strong advocates of heavy water changes may stop to think when I suggest one 100% change before lights on and one 100% at lights off. Or maybe that would be ok? Never tried it - and I won't unless I hire someone to do it for me :D.

However, you can't change none! Even nature changes water!

Josh

I suggested water changes to reduce the overall level of nutrient in the tank. I am telling you this because I faced exact same problem with Rotala. I had very hardwater, with 20+ ppm nitrate present. I cut it down with RO and dosed way less. Things improved dramatically over a couple of weeks.
I am in this hobby for a long time now and have seen all sorts of arguments against hardwater/software , EI/low dosing, Trace toxicity/K overdose etc etc.
The problem is that there is no proper controlled experiment demonstrating the effect of individual parameters while keeping every other variable fixed. People just say things based on their own settings.
I can not tell you the upper or lower limit of any nutrient, because it;s a relative thing. There are tanks where some have grown excellent Rotala and Ludwigia with EI level of nutrients and there are many examples where lower levels seems to do better. You can not compare these two because you don;t know exact parameters of the tap water, type/how old is the substrate, light intensity, water change frequency, aeration, fish load etc. etc.
But in my personal experience, hobbyists run into more problems when dosing excessively or using hard water.
Your water parameters are great. 5-7 ppm of potassium, less than 5 ppm of nitrate, 0.5 ppm of phosphate, 1 ppm magnesium and about 0.1 ppm of trace should be enough, provided you are not going crazy with lighting, dosing enough CO2 and feeding your fishes. If you see deficiency of iron, you could add a bit more via any branded iron fert or by buying in chelated form.
Again, what I am saying is mostly likely to fix any issue you are having but it's not guaranteed. I just don't know what are the parameters of your tap water. You might have crazy high nitrate like mine, or you could have high zinc or whatever. If you see things are not improving, you could try to use RO (as I did) to improve things.
For example, here are few pictures my Rotala transitioning to better form upon introducing RO and dosing only with Tropica specialized + occasioal potassium in the form of potassium carbonate (which also maintains the KH)

1. First 10-15 days in tap water(very hard), Rotala barely grew, with top leaves bending down which I find to be a classical sign of things are not going well. (CO2 is supplied enough)
pic1.jpg


This picture is after cutting down with RO and dosing less. Plants resumed decent growth within days.

IMG_1065.JPG


Now the pearling is also great.

IMG_1089.JPG


It was just one example. I have had such experiences before as well. I don't know if it's excessive calcium/magnesium blocking iron uptake/ high pH precipitating iron/ excess nitrate ding something crazy or something else.
 
Hi @soham,

Thanks for those photos! I very much agree when you say "People just say things based on their own settings." I think UKAPS does an excellent job of removing bias like that and getting to the crux of what is going on.

I can share some update photos (the lights just turned on!):
1594130661201.png

1594130688767.png

1594130703774.png


Here you can see the deficiency quite well (if you look down that stem, you can see the gross leaf):
1594131196106.png

That same stem further down (healthy nodes internodes and leaves, about 3 iterations of unhealthy growth during Excel treatment ween off into the photo above):
1594131334707.png


FTS:
1594130844932.png


I think the rotala looks healthy. And I think it's time that I trim.

The plethora of arguments for and against different strategies make this hobby challenging for us hobbyist! But UKAPS! EDIT: here we have EI users and advocates, we have scientists, we have people who adhere to Amano solely, we have people who reject EI and dose, we have light lovers, light moderators, light lowers, yet all of these have successful tanks. Oh yes, and random people from Canada! And I am sure I missed some people - so I apologise if I did.

I am curious how you discern that your CO2 is supplied enough? I have been investigating this idea recently as Green Aqua mentioned in a video on nutrition that "when you know your CO2 is good, ..."

Josh
 
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I am curious how you discern that your CO2 is supplied enough? I have been investigating this idea recently as Green Aqua mentioned in a video on nutrition that "when you know your CO2 is good, ..."

Because I spent months trying to grow Rotala in my hard tapwater. I tested with drop checker, pH-KH chart, tried switching on CO2 hours before light came on. Plus it is just not me, there are tons of threads where people have tried in vein to improve plant health just by nailing the co2 situation. I have friends who have experienced the same. Sadly, in UKAPS, APC or BarrReport there are few who blames everything on flow/co2. That is absolutely rubbish. Ofcourse we have to get the co2 right, but blaming all sorts of plant stunting/deformities on poor co2 supply is baseless.

Yes your Rotala is doing better. Is it only after stopping excel or also after water changes+low dosing? But please don't think your Rotala (or mine) is in the best form. A quick google search would show you healthy Rotala leaves being quite narrow, long and vibrant. Your Rotala leaves are short and compact. Something is not right. Here is a picture of my friend's tank, look at the growth pattern red Rotala-

82105009_10221430079049811_2394994461420552192_o.jpg
 
@soham, there is no contesting that that tank is gorgeous!

The colors pop beautifully. I suspect he is running extremely nitrate limiting conditions to get those colorings. Like I mentioned, playing with ferts is coming next.

There are a few other things that your friend has done right that I have not. One of those, is that he knows how to trim properly and presumably knows about fertilization and co2 before starting his tank. To compare our growth with those tanks is not appropriate. It is certainly a tank to say, "ok, what is he doing to obtain this and we should learn from him." But when I barely understood the fundamentals of fertilization 6 months ago, I cannot expect my rotala to suddenly look that way. My next goal (having fixed several other issues in my tank - including learning how to do maintenance properly - is to play with fertilization ... and so maybe I will have the same realization that you have had within a few months).

This is beautiful too:
1594134603411.png

1594134779089.png


And I can say with confidence that I have stems in my tank that look just like those internet photos (not all but some)- and if I put them all together side by side, and removed all my bad ones and started from the get go like this and trimmed appropriate - damn it would look good - even under these nutrient rich water column conditions. When I started this scape, I did not know how to plant, trim, flow, ferts, light, etc ... anything really.

I think what is more valuable is to say that a nutrient-rich water column fertilization will give rise to a different form of a healthy plant. And lean water column dosing will give rise to another. Along that same vein, I noticed different colors of light give rise to different types of growth as well.

@Witcher has played a lot with limiting nutrients and can maybe help explain why the plants are behaving in the way that we see?

I also want to thank you for sharing your experience (and your friends) with me.

Josh
 
I also want to thank you for sharing your experience (and your friends) with me.

You are welcome.

Please don't take my previous comment in a negative way. Because I have seen many times what many label as 'healthy' are not really in the optimal form. Infact I have seen only few tanks where Rotala flourished in hard water/ EI level of dosing. That's why I am just trying to let you know before someone tells you to add even more fertilizer and CO2 and after few weeks you end up with even worse looking plants. All I am trying to get at is- do not think just because you are dosing EI, all you need to do is fix CO2 and flow. Try playing with nutrient levels. If you are supplying enough co2, lowering the nutrient levels in water column would mostly likely alleviate the problems of various stem plants. Also you have brand new substrate, so root feeding is also not an issue. I wish you all the best, please keep the thread updated.
 
Hi all,
Infact I have seen only few tanks where Rotala flourished in hard water
I don't think Rotala rotundifolia growth is optimal in hard water. It shows <"symptoms of iron (Fe) deficiency really quickly">, which I would take as a sign that <"it is a calcifuge">.

The issue for plants, that naturally grow in wet acid soils, <"is iron toxicity rather than iron deficiency">, so they have mechanisms that help them oxidise iron in the rhizosphere etc. These may leave them unable to uptake iron in hard water.

cheers Darrel
 
Oof, then I found this post: https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/excess-potassium-problems.52216/

Ok, well, I can add this information:
I remineralize my water with potassium bicarbonate and I have wanted to wean off of it to lower potassium dosage and also to stop having to remineralize. That includes just using my water as is with Ca = 7.9 and Mg = 2.1 off the water report - my daily dose includes some magnesium as well (been wanting to remove this too) - so I wonder if the excess potassium from my remineralize (probably like 30 ppm goes into the tank) is making my rotala grow more robust instead of needley.
 
You got me there - I must familiarize myself with these terms 60p, 30c etc... just assumed it was substantial 🤣
My most humble apologies

I tend to assume familiarity with ADA tank terminology :oops:
30C - 30cm “cube garden” (which seems reasonable as the aquarium is a “cube”)
60P - 60cm “cube garden” ... except now it’s not a cube but has the “P” dimensions

Every Day for the last 2 weeks, I think, today’s the day
Except
I’m still looking for Inspiration for my 60x45x45cm (I’m planning to use the Jungle as a plant source given the current lack of lfs available plants)
 
Differences in Rotala sp. “Green” at Green Aqua Gallery

 
The very red Rotala in the above (friend’s tank) photo is unusually intense red for R rotundifolia (of which there are several variants within the hobby), I’m also curious what lighting is used, eg, the same plant will appear substantially different under various LEDs
 
The very red Rotala in the above (friend’s tank) photo is unusually intense red for R rotundifolia (of which there are several variants within the hobby), I’m also curious what lighting is used, eg, the same plant will appear substantially different under various LEDs
He makes his own light with locally sourced RGB LEDs. The tank is under low nitrate level ofcourse. I wanted to point out the narrow long shape of the leaves, not the colour. When Rotala is healthy it always produces long narrow leaves. Short compact leaves are always a sign of something excess, atleast in my experience. Rotala is a fast growing plant, responding very quickly to changing water parameters. For example here are two pictures of Tropica's show tank(you can find the video at Tropica's youtube channel). first one is 8 weeks update, second one is 12 weeks update when they rescaped parts of the tank. Notice how green rotala leaves suffered after the rescape-

8 weeks
Picture1.png


12 weeks (they do not show green rotala in this video very well, please watch the videos to get better idea)

Picture2.png
 
As allways: it help understanding what you see, if you know the facts and history behind ;).
Tropica showtank 8 weeks: photage of Rotala 'green'show a fully in-grown group at its peak, carefully maintained up to photage and left untouched for a few days. All visible branches exposed to full light. This is why focus is more on Rotala'green'. Video-material for "plant profile" of Rotala 'green' was done a few days later. The day after video for "plant profile" the groups were all heavily trimmed.
Tropica showtank 12 weeks: photage of Rotala 'green'show the formerly overshaded branches, that are left after a massive trimming, just a day after this trimming. This is why focus is not on Rotala 'green'in this photage. After another week (=week 13) the groups of Rotala 'green' all had the look as in week 8.
A limited amount of plant-mass (specific species) in the tank have been gently removed and exchanged for other species. No routines or parametres have changed in the show-tank.
- so the difference can be explained by quality/amount of flow and light and consequenses of these, in this case.
 
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