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Practical application of lean fertilizer dosing

I guess they don't have the same understanding how things work. I am not saying one is right and the other is wrong, they simply don't share the same mythology. As I posted before, Tropica fertilizer is very close to Marschner's plant tissue analysis. So maybe they prefer this path.
this part I can agree on that they have different mythology

We can see Tropica and Marschner are very close, almost identical. But the river ratios of N and K are very different than Tropica and Marschner plant tissue.
the ratio doesn't have to be the exact, but they are somewhat similar. my point was that if you have 0.3 ppm NH4 in the water, you don't need lot of K to counter the toxicity if that was the case. again, if someone is adding 8-10 ppm K weekly, this is not going to stop the plant from growing.
 
Only water column K and micros whilst soil is new. First six to nine months.
this is why I continue to use NH4/Urea instead of NO3, NH4/Urea is constantly being uptaken by the plants and the aqua soil as it attract + charges and mostly ignore - Charges. some people add Osmocote or Ammonium based root tabs to achieve the same effect.
 
ai0q9450-23-dec-21-processed-web-jpg.jpg

One of my challenges with Pantanal is that only the top leaves turn red while the leaves in the middle and lower remain green... I would like more of the plant to turn red (this photo was taken when I dosing APT EI at the recommended dose)
Simple answer. High light. Then limit nitrate to finish it off. APT EI is also not limiting nitrates so things will tend to turn greener. Your plants look healthy though.
 
Week 2: Good growth already, still a bit scrawny looking as mentioned (Boo APF...!) By this time in the past these stems would be starting to loose their leaves and withering away!

Parameters: NO CO2, GH ~4.0, KH <1.0, pH ~6.2, 73F/23C, TDS 80 ppm (yes TDS is coming down...), Much higher light, Targeting ~1 ppm of N - or lean like Mother Nature intended it - weekly with Tropica Specialized. (Still zero signs of algae)

LeanTankWk2.jpg




Cheers,
Michael
 
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Week 2: Good growth already, still a bit scrawny looking as mentioned (Boo APF...!) By this time in the past these stems would be starting to loose their leaves and withering away!

Parameters: NO CO2, GH ~4.0, KH <1.0, pH ~6.2, 73F/23C, TDS 80 ppm (yes, coming down...), Much higher light, Weekly ~1 ppm of N with Tropica Specialized. Still zero signs of algae!

View attachment 186877



Cheers,
Michael
Apart from posting photos here, pls do start a separate journal if you haven't already! I find following regular photos of "work in progress" more valuable than a single 'instagram perfect photo' as it shows me the steps I need to take.

Thats why if there is a journal or thread that shows a Pantanal (eg: emersed form) converting from green leaves to red leaves, that would be more helpful than a photo that just shows me a totally red Pantanal (which may also raise questions whether photoshop was involved...)
 
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Thanks for hammering this home @Happi ! - Remember I started a thread on this last year;
It was a revelation to me quite honestly! @Happi and other added lot of good insights to this on that thread.
Read carefully that screenshot below. The substrate is loam. Highly rich susbtrate. Soil is continuously replenished with new organic matter being deposited in the river floor.
In a 6-month + heavily planted tank, substrate will be depleted to the point where you need to either compensate by dosing water column more heavily or fertilize the substrate with osmocote or whatever you fancy or both depending the plants you have. That's the reason why we are dosing more after a certain point in time.
@Sudipta Here is what Christel says about L. inclinata in the new edition.
View attachment 186822 View attachment 186812
 
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Read carefully that screenshot below. The substrate is loam. Highly rich susbtrate. Soil is continuously replenished with new organic matter being deposited in the river floor.
In a 6-month + heavily planted tank, substrate will be depleted to the point where you need to either compensate by dosing water column more heavily or fertilize the substrate with osmocote or whatever you fancy or both depending the plants you have. That's the reason why we are dosing more after a certain point in time.
Hi @Hanuman I hear you and I mostly agree! I do not think you can do this ultra lean water column without substrate rich on microbial activity etc. (soft acidic water and all that jazz...). My substrate was originally "inert", but now after two years its highly mature and rich in microbial activity (I Assume!), so my lean column dosing should work, but only time will tell... crossing my fingers!

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Hi @Hanuman I hear you and I mostly agree! I do not think you can do this ultra lean water column without substrate rich on microbial activity etc. (soft acidic water and all that jazz...). My substrate was originally "inert", but now after two years is highly mature and rich in microbial activity, so my lean column dosing should work, but only time will tell... crossing my fingers!
I suspect your inert 2 years soil will be far from enough. You grew plants during these 2 years yes? Unless you didn't and dosed heavily and your substrate has a high CEC those plants also sucked up some of the nutrients so your soil will not be as heavily fertile as you think. Note that Sudipta used Amazonia light then also added some Amazonia I. Those are heavily fertile substrates.
In my tank, I can tell you that after 1 year using Amazonia + Black Earth I could see some plants struggling and instead of using osmocote or the like I simply sucked sections of substrate and added new one. Within the next month plants in those sections would rise to fame.
Anyway, you got to try else you'll never know. And yes please do that journal 😬
 
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Yup 👍🏽

Everyone’s slowly catching up with what @JoshP12 has already said in the last thread. He’s way ahead in this conversation. Smart chap!
Appreciate it. Just learning like everyone :).
I always like @JoshP12's posts. I am just a humble research engineer and apparently not smart enough to be able to immediately decrypt his condensed writing, but I love a good challenge and often I think I eventually get it. Takes a bit of effort.
Again, appreciate it. But when writing is inaccessible it is always the fault of the writer.
 
Hi all,
This article says not all freshwater tanks share the same microbial diversity.
There are <"some papers"> on this.
There are a number of recent scientific papers specifically on the nitrifying organisms in aquarium filters, which suggest that their assemblage shows a fluid response to varying ammonia loadings, with a stable core of Archaea and an ever changing cast of nitrifying bacteria.

This is described in <"Freshwater Recirculating Aquaculture System Operations Drive Biofilter Bacterial Community Shifts around a Stable Nitrifying Consortium of Ammonia-Oxidizing Archaea and Comammox Nitrospira">, Bagchi et al (2014) <"Temporal and Spatial Stability of Ammonia-Oxidizing Archaea and Bacteria in Aquarium Biofilters"> & <"Kinetic analysis of a complete nitrifier reveals an oligotrophic lifestyle">.
Thanks to @Sudipta , that is a good one.
I should have linked in our <"conversation with Tim Hovanec"> for newer members. I think generally it would be fair to say I'm not keen on Bacterial supplements etc. but I've got a lot of time for Dr Hovanec.

cheers Darrel
 
I suspect your inert 2 years soil will be far from enough. You grew plants during these 2 years yes? Unless you didn't and dosed heavily and your substrate has a high CEC those plants also sucked up some of the nutrients so your soil will not be as heavily fertile as you think. Note that Sudipta used Amazonia light then also added some Amazonia I. Those are heavily fertile substrates.
In my tank, I can tell you that after 1 year using Amazonia + Black Earth I could see some plants struggling and instead of using osmocote or the like I simply sucked sections of substrate and added new one. Within the next month plants in those sections would rise to fame.
Anyway, you got to try else you'll never know. And yes please do that journal 😬
Hi @Hanuman , Yes, my inert but "mature" substrate is an unknown factor. I did grow plants in it for 2 years. Previously I did dose quite heavily (EI levels) for a long time. I do not know what level the substrates Cation Exchange Capacity is at - thats a big unknown. I mostly kept the substrate undisturbed, with only occasional vacuuming of mulm and detritus. Also, I am using a bit of Osmocote balls in the area where I keep the stem plants. I hope I do not have to replace the substrate... Lets see. It might be feasible to deploy your idea of gradually replacing the substrate with Amazonia.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Yes, my inert but "mature" substrate is an unknown factor.
Mature or not has little importance in this specific situation I think as long as it is cycled and you have no more or very little ammonia leeching. You could have a 15 year old substrate with all the bacteria in the world that it would be the same issue, and that is nutrient availability in the substrate. Maturity of the substrate is beneficial from a general stand point of the tank and its stability but it serves little if food is not present or in low amounts and you have hungry plants. Anyway as long as you are adding something to the substrate then you should be good.

In my current tank, when I reset it a few months ago, I took 10%-15% of the old substrate and added it as a first layer before adding the new substrate. The tank was basically cycled in 4 days with <0.5ppm ammonia showing in the tests. I kept all my plants in a styrofoam box in high humidity for that time. On the 5th day when I added the plants back, I basically had 0% melt and all plants started growing like if nothing had happened. The plants I was most concerned about were my bucephalandra but they didn't skip a beat. All stems grew without waiting any further notice.

All I am saying is that you should not get too tight on the maturity of the substrate. It is important of course but most importantly is for plants to have food.
 
Why didn't you plant straightaway? Nh4 + softening is good no?
Not really. If you plant straight away in a fresh rich aquasoil that leaches excessive amounts of ammonia you can expect some level of melting. Plants do like ammonia or other macros for that matter but when ppm levels are way off from what they are used to, they need to adapt again and you can/will get some melting combined with algae proliferation. On fast growing plants, not a big deal. On epiphytes not so cool. What I did was a fast mini-cycle. My canister also helped as I didn't touch it during the reset. Once all was back to normal I did a quick clean of the filter.
Tank was left like this for 4 days without light. WC 2-3 times within that period to remove all ammonia excess.
IMG_6507.jpg
 
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The only examiners/judges here are your plants. 🤓 We are mere spectators.😎
Whilst we’re on that subject. This, not so unique idea, has already been discussed ad nauseam in two mammoth threads that differ only in title. Surely there can’t be that much more to discuss? Wouldn’t it be better to start a journal now and turn theory in to practice?

Then you’ll be able to test your hypothesis and see if it holds true with reference to an actual planted aquarium. Like @Hanuman has suggested the plants will be the ultimate arbitrators. I’m sure it’d make for a far better and more productive discussion.
 
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