Newbie needs help!

[ukco2guy]

Hi all,

I have had a 45gallon tank for over 5 years with just fish but a few months ago i started to add my first plants. I must admit that i did not add that many and so they did not last long (out competed for food by hair algae). But in the last couple of months i have added about 40 which have done wonders for my algae issue (it has virtually gone) and the water seems very clear compared to the past but i am having issues trying to keep them all green and looking great. Issues i am getting are pale leaves with dark green veins (which i believe is either magnesium or iron) and browned edges on most leaves. Currently i am injecting co2 with a tetra co2 unit (once per day) and have this weekend started to add 5ml/day of flourish iron. Since adding the iron the water has become cloudy which clears overnight.

As i`m not that experienced i am worried that any more major additions or changes could do more damage than good. At the moment my tests are showing the following:

Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - around 80-100 (the water here is terrible and i really cannot afford to go RO)
High PH - 7.6
Iron - 0 (i think, ran the test a few times before and after adding the flourish iron and it still shows a light blue 0)
co2 - 10ppm (tests are 5 droplets before going purple, so x2 is 10ppm, apparently).

I guess any advise would be appreciated, i have already spent quite a bit and really would like to battle this out

This is my first post, please let me know if i`m missing anything out.

Regards,

 

[ceg4048]

Hi,
Welcome to the forum. It's suggested that you navigate to the Tutorials Section of the forum and read the various articles there.

There are quite a few gaps in most beginners knowledge. This is not helped at all by the endless streams of misinformation out there. We'll try to clear some things up which will help to point you in the right direction.

First of all plants and algae do not really compete. This is misinformation number 1. Plants and algae inhabit different niches in the ecological spectrum in the same way that elephants and mice inhabit different parts of a land based system. Algae survive and thrive on virtually no nutrients at all. They are the mice. Higher plants need massive amounts of nutrients to survive under certain conditions, like the condition in our tanks. Higher plants are the elephants. If there is a drought the first to die will be the elephants because they require such large quantities.

Algae were the first plants and they have figured out every possible way to survive. They are generalists and opportunists.
Higher plants are descended from algae and are much more specialized. When the conditions necessary for their growth are not present they perish. This partially explains why very few plant species are found in every ecosystem and why most algae are found in every ecosystem. Algae actually prey on higher plants. When a plant becomes unhealthy algae will attack the plants. This gives the illusion that the two are competing but they aren't. By the time you see the algae appear, the plant has already failed and has become unhealthy.

This fundamental principle is important because it gives us clues about how to read the events that unfold in the tank. Reading and interpreting the clues helps you to identify the flaw in the environmental conditions and helps you to determine how to correct those conditions to be more in tune with what the plants require to thrive.

Normally, the environmental conditions that algae favour and conditions which are detrimental to plants. So when you see algae you should absolutely not think about competition and instead, you should interpret it as being an indication of unfriendly environmental conditions for plants.

As it turns out, the species of algae that appear is actually another set of clues which tell you what is missing in the environment. When a particular set of nutritional requirements is missing, a particular type of physiological failure occurs to the plant and subsequently, a particular type (or types) of algae will then attack the plant based on that failure mode. This bizarre fact helps us to fix what is wrong in the tank. Misinterpretation of the clues leads you further and further away from the truth and results in more problems.

In your example of hair algae, you completely misinterpreted the clue. Hair algae has nothing to do with competition in this sense and everything to do with too much light and not enough CO2 in the environment. The plant then becomes starved of Carbon and hair algae attacks when a plant suffers a Carbon deficiency. The correct response should have been to increase the level of CO2 by either gaseous injection or liquid supplementation, or to lower the light. So from this point of view, it doesn't matter whether you have 4 or 40 plants. The only thing that will prevent a hair algae attack is to help the plants consume a higher quantity of CO2.

A summary of algal forms and their causal factors are discussed in JamesC's Algae Guide

The other issue where you're missing the boat is that you have much too much dependency on the results of your test kits. Hobby grade test kits are entirely useless because they lie and they lie inconsistently, so much so that you really cannot trust the readings. You then react inappropriately to the readings and you then make further mistakes which ultimately dooms your plants to oblivion.

Here are a few examples:
Ammonia is never zero in a fish tank. It s always being produced. That's what living things do - they produce ammonia. Your ammonia test kit simply does not have the ability to measure below a certain level so the designers consider this zero. The same with nitrite.

Plants need nitrate. They need it quite badly. if your Nitrate level actually was 80 that would be a boon. Unfortunately, this is undoubtedly a false high reading from your nitrate test kit and the number might be closer to 8 than to 80. If you could afford RO water you would then be making an even bigger mistake using RO to avoid nitrate in the water supply and you would then suffer a type of algae that appears when plants are lacking nitrate.

Your pH of 7.6 is not relevant to plants. Plants do not really care about pH. What this high pH might tell you is that you are not injecting enough CO2.

Iron - 0 (i think, ran the test a few times before and after adding the flourish iron and it still shows a light blue 0)

Do you still believe your test kit? This event should leave you in no doubt that your test kits are leading you astray. You know absolutely how much iron you added to the tank. Therefore it is folly to continue using a test kit that responds as if you added nothing at all.

co2 - 10ppm (tests are 5 droplets before going purple, so x2 is 10ppm, apparently).

You cannot measure the CO2 content by checking the pH of the tank water. You need to use a dropchecker. This is all explained in the Tutorial CO2 MEASUREMENT USING A DROP CHECKER

If you are injecting CO2 then you need to add a source of Nitrogen, Phosphorous and Potassium. These are 100X more important than Iron or Magnesium. Read the nutrient section on JamesC's website for more details. Besure to read Setting up a 'higher' tech planted tank in the Tutorials Section.

Cheers,

 

[bigmatt]

Hi there,
Clive (ceg4048) is rarely wrong (irritatingly! )
I'm still on the upwards learning curve myself, so know how it feels! The major thing that i've learnt is that growing plants is always a balance, and there aren't really any shortcuts. You don't mention your lighting or filter setup in your post, but there are plants that can be grown very successfully with lower light/low tech systems. Unfortunately the harsh truth (that should probably be written large on the UKAPS front page!) is that if you want to go high tech (ie high light) then there are no half measures - you NEED to go the whole hog with pressurised CO2, fert dosing (EI is the best, cheapest way forward), and massive circulation (at least 10x tank volume - a lot on a 45gal system!) otherwise you're making problems for yourself and will simply have great success growing algae!
An entry level CO2 system is really no good for a 45gal tank - it simply cannot raise and maintain high enough co2 levels, and if your CO2 levels aren't high enough or stable enough or circulated well enough then you get ....ALGAE (tah dah!) - normally hair algae (aka BBA or bottle brush algae). If you want to add CO2 you're far better investing a few quid (£70 or so - see Carbon Dioxide thread for more info) in a pressurised Fire Extinguisher based system. Sounds horribly complicated but believe me if i can work it it can't be that hard!
Anyhoo, hope this little bit helps - it's a steep learning curve but the results are well worth it!
Matt

 

[ukco2guy]

Hi,

Thanks for the quick replies guys, much appreciate. I see now that what i was thinking was the opposite of the truth and i after reading the suggested articles that i have a lack of co2 and the correct conditions hence my fight with hair algae. Since using the tetra co2 the algae has seriously been reduced but i do have pale leaves with dark green veins. I am looking at investing in a JBL proflora co2 system at some point but is their any recommendation as to diy co2 systems? I have two of these tetra co2 canisters with diffusers, would it be wise for me to install the second one and run two for now as it states that each one is really for 100l and i have a 250l tank? Also i realise at this point that my filtration is probably not up to par either, it`s a Fluval 4plus but i have wondered about if i go external filtration should i go large or will this cause issues if i get something too big? Test kit wise i will see your point, for now i`ll use what i have up but it seems that it`s all about getting to know the tank and what compensating when things change.

`If you are injecting CO2 then you need to add a source of Nitrogen, Phosphorous and Potassium. These are 100X more important than Iron or Magnesium. Read the nutrient section on JamesC's website for more details. Besure to read Setting up a 'higher' tech planted tank in the Tutorials Section.`

I have since purchased the Seachem plant pack with bottles of nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium, would it be wise for me to start using this with the recommended dose until i see any changes in the plants, also would my fish be at any risk if i start using this? I figured i would ask before going ahead with the dosing?

As for my setup it is currrently:
Fluval Duo Deep 1200 (45gal)
Fluval 4plus Filter (about to be changed but i`m not sure to go for a fluval 305, 405 or an eheim)
42" Red Light 40w + 42" Flora Sun 40w lights, set to 10hrs/day
Mixture of wysteria, versalis and button plants (not sure on the real names), assorted bog wood
Fish: Mono Angel x1, Dwarf Guami x2, Red Tail Botia x4, SAE x4, Pleco Catfish x4, Clown Loach x1, American Flag Fish x2.

Thanks again guys and it`s good to be here

Cheers,

 

[bigmatt]

No such thing as a "too big" filter! Get the biggest, highest turnover your budget will allow, and maybe leave your plus4 running as well to act as a powerhead rather than for it's filtration.
In terms of ferts the Seachem range is highly spoken of - but it's really expensive to dose a tank of that size! Maybe have a look at the EI threads on here to get an idea - it'll work out much, much cheaper in the long run! Don't be to worried about fish health - a lot of the stuff about high ferts damaging fish is nonsense (i'll let ceg4048 expand on that!)
Looking at your tank specs with a capacity of 215l/45gal you might need to think about extra lighting if you're going high tech and want to go down the "grow anything" route. George Farmer recommends lighting of 0.5w/l in lagre tanks for "grow anything" (though lighting is actually really subjective and many variables are invloved)
As far as CO2 goes the best, cheapest route to follow is Fire Extinguisher (FE) - cheaper to setup initally (and realy no more compicated than the JBL sets) and much cheaper to run in the long term
Have fun!
Matt

 

[ukco2guy]

Hi,

Excellent, i`ve read through the EI thread and it does not seem that bad, just got to get my head around the math and working out a good regime for daily or weekly ferts. I have today started to add 5ml iron, 10ml potassium, 5ml phosphorus and 3ml of nitrogen which i will do twice a week and keep a close eye on the how the plants are developing. I have added the second Tetra co2 unit (one at each end of the tank) with one of them under the out pipe of the filter so it should circulate the co2 around a bit better. I`ve also moved the 4plus filter 90 degrees round so that the out pipe now flows down the side of the tank rather than diagonally as it was before and circulation definitely appears better around the whole tank.

Again appreciate your responses, i know that at the moment i`m not doing myself much justice as the filtration is not good enough neither is the substrate as it`s just coarse gravel with nothing underneath e.g. any fertilising soil, but i will look into that when i can afford to Would it be worth me uploading some pics of the tank, at least you guys can see how it is currently?

Cheers,

 

[paul.in.kendal]

Always worth posting pictures!

 

[ukco2guy]

Hi,

Sorry for the delay in responding, here are some pics of the tank, at least you guys can see how it is currently. Please don`t laugh, i know it`s nothing compared to other here but it`s my first tank Also i am expecting delivery of a new Eheim 2224, it`s my current budget, i just hope it`s big enough!





Cheers,