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RO water please advice - brown algea-diatoma ?

arty

Member
Joined
13 Jun 2010
Messages
140
Possibly i will go in this time not for new light but for RO unit and remineralize, my tap is high on silicates and possibly more other toxic compounds.

After i read info on James Planted tank about remineralization RO my question - why need so much dry salts ?
And i looking in internet some components is expensive and like pot. carbonate i did not found.

On James:
Calcium Chloride Dihydrate
Calcium Sulphate Dihydrate
Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate
Potassium Carbonate

How about other option what recommend self product saechem Equilibrium but only same recipe in diy and there all salts easily available ?

Look info from Their website:

"Why It's Different

Unlike competing products, Equilibrium contains NO SODIUM CHLORIDE. Both sodium and chloride are not rapidly depleted elements in a planted aquarium, and, in the case of chloride, can do more harm than good. Competitors’ products generally contain primarily sodium chloride (because it is inexpensive), which will raise the electrolyte levels for fish, but can be detrimental to plant growth. In addition, sodium is not a contributing cation to GH levels. Equilibrium™ contains only calcium, magnesium, and potassium salts, which aid in fish metabolism, but are also highly beneficial to plant growth"

Guaranteed AnalysisSoluble Potassium (K20) 23.0%
Calcium (Ca) 8.06%
Magnesium (Mg) 2.41%
Soluble Iron (Fe) 0.11%
Soluble Manganese (Mn) 0.06%

Derived from: potassium sulfate, calcium sulfate, magnesium sulfate, ferric sulfate, manganese sulfate.

Elemental potassium is present at a concentration of 195,000 ppm (19.5%). Archaic fertilizer laws force us to list potassium in terms of equivalence to a material that is not present (K2O) rather
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That mean i can mix:
K2so4
+
Calcium Sulphate Dihydrate
+
MgSo4

and i apologise Fe and Mn plants can easily get from micro trace elements

Right or not ? Please expert advice ?

Cheers
Arty
 
Re: RO water please advice ?

I found 4 stage Ro for cheap price and think better option clean on 99%. Tap is high on silicates i clearly see from diatoma-brown algea, two months fight in new setup with different methods - no way.
And i clearly see from tap deposits.
My tap approx. are 3-4dgh(last time when tested) and approx 7dkh(from chart, ph meter and drop checker), i have no tests on today, last time tested 3 months ago and all water parameters been different.
Last time tap water parameters changed every week , sometimes every day, i see from deposits and ph meter some day 7.5, some day 7.2, some 6.9 , :D

I don't wanna equilibrum buy - expensive, but if that diy same recipe works then i need buy only calcium sulphate. All other dry salts i have.
Also if calculate my current tap saechem water conditioner cost on 400L tank, then Ro cartridges cost will be approx. same. And i hope membrane will last long - water is soft but full with shites and no Mg :)

And i will try make cofee cup with RO water :D
We don't drink tap water, always use mineral water in bottles.
 
Re: RO water please advice ?

About the only good reason I can see for using RO is for the coffee/tea. This will not solve diatoms, and that's a certainty.

If you want a cheap way of remineralizing your RO then just do as hoggie suggests and cut the RO with tap. The key ingredients in raising the RO's GH is Calcium and Magnesium. For raising the KH you'll need Carbonate or Bicarbonate. That's why you need so many different salts. Aquaessentials used to sell GH booster but I don't see it on their list of dry powders any more.

As stated earlier, unless you have a very good reason for using RO, it's absolutely pointless to go through all this trouble. There are just as many people using RO that suffer diatoms and other algae as there are that use tap water, so right off the bat you are trying to solve a problem that cannot be solved by the method you suppose because the cause of your problem has nothing to do with the content of your water. :thumbdown:

Cheers,
 
Re: RO water please advice ?

:(
KH realy necessary for water in tank or easily can keep at 0 ? Or simply can add some liters tap gain little KH , but then hard calculations, need always tests, every week different tap different ? Looks saechem don't offer kh option with this equilibrum product.
But i read some posts where ro water help to some people with silicate removing.
I know silicate is very small for membrane, but 4 stage final resin and after resin tds is 0. Only i'm not sure about resin expenses, iread some posts need change every 1-2 week for tds 0 and that is expensive for me. Do You think in this case silicate not removed ?
And if i'l mix tap with ro, can i make ratio Ca:mg not like 3:1 but 1:3 or 1:4, i have already a lot Epsom Salt and i found in network info about Magnesium little help keep in bay silicates and cheaper option for me ?
What do You think about this silicate removing product ?

500g of SERA Siporax Silicate Clear

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SERA-Silicate-Cle ... 4839cc1f9e

I don't found any feedbacks about this product, but if realy help and last 3 months, maybe maybe.

Is any other solution for this problem ?
:( I don't know what do now, maybe new better light and accelerate plant grow !? I apologise silicates in water in limited level and diatoma Bio Mass can't be neverending. I need at least 15-20% change water weekly for healthy tank and with every water change again feed this shite diatoma build up skelets.

Thank You for Support !
Best Regards
Arty
 
Re: RO water please advice ?

arty said:
:(
KH realy necessary for water in tank or easily can keep at 0 ? Or simply can add some liters tap gain little KH , but then hard calculations, need always tests, every week different tap different ? Looks saechem don't offer kh option with this equilibrum product.
Arty,
I don't understand why you want to make your life so complicated. First of all, as I've said, you have decided to use RO for the completely wrong reason. So now you will give yourself a new set of problems trying to calculate ratios and having to add things back into the water that you removed with the RO - and you will still have the same old problems.

Diatoms do not care about your silicates. That is not what triggers diatoms in an aquarium. I have had tanks with plenty of silicates in my tap water and I didn't get diatoms. I've also had tanks using RO water and I got diatoms algae. When I got diatoms in the RO tank, I reduced the lighting. Within a few days the diatoms were reduced. Within a few weeks they disappeared completely. Diatoms are a cyclic algae. They often appear at tank startup because people go crazy with too much light. Immature tanks are susceptible to diatomic attacks because of the poor bacteria populations which cause fluctuations in NH4. There may be other factors as well which contribute, but by far, the most important factor is the light intensity.

Since they have this strange life cycle, normally they appear, then disappear and usually never return. If the aquarist continues the use of too much light then then the diatoms also continues.

The person(s) who claim that RO water solved their diatom problem was suffering from an optical illusion. It could easily be for example that the diatomic life cycle was at or near the end when they started using RO. They then associated the disappearance of the algae with the RO. Since diatoms typically do not return in aquariums, and if they continue to use RO they would then falsely conclude that the way to keep diatoms away is to continue the use of RO.

This is how we get into trouble, with false associations. All you have to do to test the theory of silicates causing diatoms is to simply add a silicate source to a tank that does not presently have diatoms. You'll find that this will not trigger a diatom bloom. This is the same false correlation that many other people create between other types of algae and nutrients.

Diatomic algae, once triggered into bloom by high light will absolutely feed on silicates in the water. They use silicates to form the structure of their cell walls. When people heard that an autopsy of diatoms revealed high silicate content they immediately became hysterical and assumed that silicates caused diatoms. But silicates in the water cannot trigger a diatom bloom. If you study the bodies of GSA you will absolutely find that they contain phosphorous, but it is wrong to conclude that phosphorous in the water triggers a GSA bloom. The fact is that GSA is triggered when the PO4 levels are too low.

Your problem therefore is very simple. You have too much light. This is the case with 99% of people who suffer any kind of algae. Lower your light by at least 50%, continue to do large (50% or more) frequent water changes and ensure that you have adequate CO2 and flow. In a few weeks, the diatoms will disappear. This will mean that you do not have the burden of dealing with RO.

arty said:
I don't know what do now, maybe new better light and accelerate plant grow !?
Adding more light will never solve your problem - unless your problem is that you don't have enough algae.

Cheers,
 
Re: RO water please advice ?

Real Thanks for advice but I'm Not sure about that. I have very low light 1w/gal, and extra one another temporary bulb 40w on top/middle over tank and vwhere light plants get more there diatoma less, but where light less there diatoma more.
About water changes, before change less, after water change within 5 hr i see much more diatoma wherever.
I tried already left over 400L only 40w light and got in result much more diatoma.

Cheers,
 
Re: RO water please advice ?

It's not clear what size tank and what kind of lighting you have. are you saying this is a 400L tank lit by 40watts T5? That is not 1 WPG. What kind of flow/distribution? Is it CO2 enriched?

Cheers,
 
Re: RO water please advice ?

Hi Ceg
That's a fantastic response to artys dilemma,he needs to re-think where his problems are coming from.
I just recently set up a aquarium for a work mate.
The most important advise i gave him was to keep the lighting on for only 6 hours maximum per day for the first 12 weeks.
It is a must that floating plants are used within new set-ups which i provided,this just my opinion but it has never failed for me on any NEW aquarium setup this aquarium has a small internal MATURE filter and the water is crystal clear.
Most inexperienced aquarist go way over the top with lighting when setting up a NEW aquarium.
They need to learn how to crawl before they can walk the walk regarding clear and clean water.
I have never had any algae problems or diatoms problems ever.A mature filter is a must.
He doesn't say which filter he is using? Size/turnover/internal/external.
Keep up the good work Ceg.
hoggie
 
Re: RO water please advice ?

Hi all,
I think the silicates = diatoms issue is a red herring as well, I'd totally ignore them and they will go away of their own accord. I think it depends on what fish you want to keep whether R.O. is really needed. If I was trying to breed extreme black water fish or grow Tonina I'd go down the R.O. route, probably otherwise not.

I think Ed keeps his Tang. cichlids in R.O., GH/KH buffered back up to a very high level, and that would be my suggestion as well, if you are really worried by the exact levels of GH/KH, Mg, K, Ca etc. Make you own GH/KH mix from suitable compounds (- magnesium sulphate, potassium bi-carbonate and calcium chloride would be suitable for example), and then measure the conductivity of them in 10 litres of R.O. you should only need 2 or 3 dGH/KH as your fertiliser addition will add both GH/KH, and raise the conductivity.

cheers Darrel
 
Thanks for advice. My water is too crystal clear now except diatoma cover a lot places and plant leaves.
I keeping my old tank before i setup rio 400 for some years and never had any algea isues at all.
I think that due my water suply water parameters changed some 2-3 months ago. And i tried already within 2 months different methods, low light(my tank not as ceg said 40w on 400l, i left specialy for some time due diatoma), i tried left for some time - week or two can't remember now only 40w, i tried left only 80w and 4x40w(my max light) , two lights are very weak analog T8 and nothing helps. Best results i seen when lights all on, plants grow and only at bottom leaves grow diatoma. That why i asking about not better option raise more light and acellerate plant growth(?) I read some info about plants eating silacate in small amount and make from them stronger stems.
I think low light only slow down diatoma growth and slow down plant growth too, but that don't resolve fully diatoma problem. Lighting not cause of this problems, i think diatoma is more imbalance in biological system imunity, excess of something and this excess build up. I found some info in internet about cause - poshphate: Silicate ratio, if Si higher then bad, that can explain why silicates lost power itself, when tank become realy established P always present in tank from old leaves e.g.
And also fedbacks in many forums where users told they lost diatoma by itself with less or more light.
Other question what's amount in TAP silicates, if there is realy high amount then never can get P level higher as silicate level with healthy tank.
Possibly i have lack of P, maybe or realy high silicate amount in tap
Also i have a lot stem fast growing and floating plants. Filtration is ok, 1400L/h + Hydor prime 20(gives same flow as 1400) flos, ceramic rings + bio balls.
Please look info wherever in internet what said others, diatoma grow and survive in very low lights, You can left and 5w and anything that don't solve diatoma problem.
I Tried give macro some time, tried without any micro and macro, only potasium due i have fish stock and i feed very minimal.
I do regular maintenance. Water changes. Nothing helps.
Do You realy think problem coming somewhere except TAP water ?
Possibly problem come from fish food - organic, i tried change food as possible, now i will look some time with totaly different food.
nitrite 0, amonia 0, nitrate 5-10
I have no options, will look some weeks and if don't solve then will go for RO/DI unit and totaly from tds 0 remineralize water or other option econimcal 50/50 with ca:mg ratio 1:3(4) gives me kh 3-4 and gh approx. same, then i need add only Epsom Salt Mgso4(i will make exact calculations later).

Yesterday we visit with all family nice places, when looking one natural river, there water crystal creal and naturaly a lot looks like brown algea on sand and many plant leaves, possibly 'where comes our water supply' :D

About light increase for plant growth acceleration as sample here from APC forum one thread about Method of controlled imbalances:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... mmary.html

And there You can found how solve problems for allmost all types of algea and about diatoma author said:

"E. DIATOMEAS

Increase your light!!!!!! Don't waste you time about silicates."

That why i'm asking about maybe better option spend cash on better lighting first ?!
And why i'm asking to ceg about mg and ca ratio not only due i have a lot Epsom Salt for economy with ro, but also look author words:

"For example, everybody read about the Ca:Mg 4:1 ratio. This is a ratio from terrestian studies. Under the water this ratio produces several problems related to algae. The ratio that works better is exactly the opposite 1:4 "

"Overall, it says that the plants require at least 2 watts/g and in fact this should be read as it is the bare minimum to survive and grow for low requirements plants. However, our goal is a bit more ambitious because I want to induce a metabolism working at a 100% rate, which is why we recommend 4 w / g as a minimum. However, the feedback from the last two years it emerged that many people have successfully used this system with less illuminated aquariums (up to 0.3 watt / g). Anyway, we recommend to improve the lighting."


Best Regards
 
Of course looked and looked many tiumes and long time ago too.

But You looked that:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... mmary.html

There is same isues, but different methods

All what about i said in my posts is from my personal expirence and i compare all info what i found internet, not only from one forum or one website.

And why You asking about James web. ? There can found only:

Diatoms, Brown Algae
Highslide JS Highslide JS
Description Forms in brown patches on the glass, substrate and plants.
Cause Usually found in newly setup tanks due to silicates and ammonia as the filter and substrate have yet to mature.
Removal Can be vacuumed out or wiped of the glass with a soft cloth. Usually disappears after a few weeks when the tank has matured. Otocinclus will eat it.

This info nothing helps resolve problem, sorry.

Regards,
 
Yes arty
I did look at that Topic.
Interesting to say the least,I'm not sure though on 4watts per gallon lighting.
Ceg is the man on that subject
I have t8 lighting and never had algae or diatom problems ever.
Regards
hoggie
 
arty said:
"For example, everybody read about the Ca:Mg 4:1 ratio. This is a ratio from terrestian studies. Under the water this ratio produces several problems related to algae. The ratio that works better is exactly the opposite 1:4 "

What tosh. People getting hung up on ratios again, oh dear. Plants don't give a monkeys about ratios, they just want enough of what they demand. Algae is triggered by ammonia and light. Therefore Ca and Mg, no matter what the ratio, could never cause algae.
Clive (ceg) is the most intelligent being I know with regards to planted tanks and his advice is golden.
 
About ratio, that been adition to question about mixing RO water, and in this way i can get more easy kh 3-4 and gh 3-4 on budget mixing 50/50 ro/tap with MgSo4 , due i already have soft water. And if author of controled Imbalances recommend ratio not 4:1 but 1:4 then why not. But i will hear other expert advice too.
And what You can say about a lot people who told in different forums got diatoma due one or two bulbs faulty-going off and got when lighting less as been before ?
What about my plants, where light less there diatoma more, where lighting get plants more there diatoma less ?
And what You can said about official Labaroty after expirements posted about diatoma trigered due P:Si ratio, when silicates higher ? They are too blef ?


Best Regards,
 
Arty,
Part of the problem is that we have very little control of the tank parameters. We cannot measure the parameters very well and there are many combinations of things that can affect the outcome. That's why, when you hear so many people say that they did this or that and the algae disappeared you really have no idea about all the things that changed in the tank. You can do something to your tank today and not see the results for a week. If you see the results in a week you probably won't remember what you did a week ago and it will be very easy to think that the cause of the algae is something you did yesterday.

None of the ratios you mention will matter unless there is a fundamental deficiency. If your tank is low on Mg then you will have Mg deficient symptoms. If the tank is low on Ca then you will suffer Ca deficient symptoms. As Fred mentioned, if you have an unlimited supply of both Ca and Mg in the water column then you can have whatever ratio you want and it will not produce any different effect whatsoever. That's why it's very easy for someone to say that a ratio of 4:1 (or whatever) produces good growth. Plants don't need a lot of either so it's very easy to satisfy their requirement. So, sure, I can show that 4:1, or 3:10 (or whatever number I want) is good if there is enough ppm of either in the tank.

You can test this for yourself. Go and dump a bucket load of MgSO4 in the tank and see what happens. As I said, it's the same with silicates. How do you explain the fact that there are people in your area (and our area) using tap who do not have diatoms? What about the people using RO who get diatoms? Will you blame it on Ca:Mg ratio? These are the same old arguments about excess nutrients causing algae. None of these arguments are valid. They have been tested and the arguments failed.

We've said to you earlier that diatomic algae occurs in a cycle, and that it appears, then disappears and does not return. Don't you think that might explain why those people observed that diatoms went away by itself? Even if you have low light, you can still get diatoms due to issues with tank immaturity. We have mentioned that. If the lighting is not excessive then it goes away by itself. But you may have played with the light, increased it, triggered the bloom - but the bloom may not have occurred until the day you decided to lower the light, so you concluded that low light was worse than high light. There are a million combinations of bad decisions which result in algae, but fundamentally, you need to keep the light low, have good stable CO2 and flow and have good levels of nutrients. Clean the tank regularly, and after a few weeks the diatoms will go away.

If you like to play with ratios, and if you like to use RO then fine, but they will not have an effect. Sometimes we are impatient and that causes even more problems.

Cheers,
 
Thanks for advice Ceg. Probably You are right.
Anything i calculated our budget and we need cash for tourism with childrens in this week, so no cash now for RO/DI not for new light.
Will left tank with 80w T8, some ferts and water changes some time and then will look what's next.

Best Regards,
 
Re: RO water please advice ?

ceg4048 said:
Diatoms do not care about your silicates. That is not what triggers diatoms in an aquarium. I have had tanks with plenty of silicates in my tap water and I didn't get diatoms. I've also had tanks using RO water and I got diatoms algae. When I got diatoms in the RO tank, I reduced the lighting. Within a few days the diatoms were reduced. Within a few weeks they disappeared completely. Diatoms are a cyclic algae. They often appear at tank startup because people go crazy with too much light. Immature tanks are susceptible to diatomic attacks because of the poor bacteria populations which cause fluctuations in NH4. There may be other factors as well which contribute, but by far, the most important factor is the light intensity.

Since they have this strange life cycle, normally they appear, then disappear and usually never return. If the aquarist continues the use of too much light then then the diatoms also continues.

The person(s) who claim that RO water solved their diatom problem was suffering from an optical illusion. It could easily be for example that the diatomic life cycle was at or near the end when they started using RO. They then associated the disappearance of the algae with the RO. Since diatoms typically do not return in aquariums, and if they continue to use RO they would then falsely conclude that the way to keep diatoms away is to continue the use of RO.

This is how we get into trouble, with false associations. All you have to do to test the theory of silicates causing diatoms is to simply add a silicate source to a tank that does not presently have diatoms. You'll find that this will not trigger a diatom bloom. This is the same false correlation that many other people create between other types of algae and nutrients.

Diatomic algae, once triggered into bloom by high light will absolutely feed on silicates in the water. They use silicates to form the structure of their cell walls. When people heard that an autopsy of diatoms revealed high silicate content they immediately became hysterical and assumed that silicates caused diatoms. But silicates in the water cannot trigger a diatom bloom. If you study the bodies of GSA you will absolutely find that they contain phosphorous, but it is wrong to conclude that phosphorous in the water triggers a GSA bloom. The fact is that GSA is triggered when the PO4 levels are too low.

If diatoms are silicon limited, then adding silica will allow them to grow, potentially turning into a bloom. It's no different to your own explanation with light, when you turn up the light you get a bloom because they were previously light limited.

If you have no diatoms in your tank to start with then you will never get diatoms regardless of light or silicon - they can't magically appear out of nowhere. Removing diatoms after an outbreak could stop them coming back because you've removed the silicon that they had absorbed. If you just filter them out then they will die in the dark filter and release silicon back into the water feeding more diatoms. You can have a bloom without noticing it since their numbers would have to get sufficient for you to see the difference, they could run out of silicon before this happens but be sat there waiting for another dose.

Diatoms do care alot about silicon.

I don't understand when people talk about cause and triggers since it implies one thing. Light or silicon can "cause" or be the "trigger" if the diatoms are light or silicon limited, respectively.

Heres an interesting study into diatoms and silicon...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 3-0139.pdf

Perhaps a reason for the confusion around diatoms and silicon can be explained by this study..

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... l.pdf+html

In summary, biological phosphorus (algae food) will bind to aluminium thereby becoming useless to algae. There is 18 micrograms/l of aluminium in my tap water and that could nullify a certain amount of biological phosphorus in the tank. However, aluminium prefers to bind to silicon, so of I add silcon to my tank, then the aluminium will bind to that instead, leaving more biological phosphorus available to algae.

Silicon reduces the algae reducing effect of aluminium.

As the study describes, adding silicon resulted in increased green algae growth as well as diatoms. It's an interesting read.

I would also like to point out that the ratio of nutrients in an organism doesn't correlate to their requirement for those nutrients in that ratio. Some nutrients are simply required for metabolism and aren't stored in the organism and others are stored for no apparent reason. There was a study I read recently about rice storing huge amounts of silicon even though it didn't seem to need it and a hypothesis that in most biological organisms, silicon is used to bind to and thereby reduce the toxic effects of aluminium. In other words, just because your made of silicon, it doesn't neccesarily follow that you need it for growth.
 
Re: RO water please advice ?

sWozzAres said:
If diatoms are silicon limited, then adding silica will allow them to grow, potentially turning into a bloom. It's no different to your own explanation with light, when you turn up the light you get a bloom because they were previously light limited.

Silica can feed diatoms however they are not the reason as to why they are there in the first place.

Ceg explains here
Diatomic algae, once triggered into bloom by high light will absolutely feed on silicates in the water. They use silicates to form the structure of their cell walls. When people heard that an autopsy of diatoms revealed high silicate content they immediately became hysterical and assumed that silicates caused diatoms. But silicates in the water cannot trigger a diatom bloom. If you study the bodies of GSA you will absolutely find that they contain phosphorous, but it is wrong to conclude that phosphorous in the water triggers a GSA bloom. The fact is that GSA is triggered when the PO4 levels are too low.

sWozzAres said:
It's no different to your own explanation with light, when you turn up the light you get a bloom because they were previously light limited.


Ceg's explanation is different from your's because the algae spores only need ammonia+light. Hence light limited. Algae spore trigger and algae growth are different. The rest I shall leave in the much capeable hands of Ceg :D
 
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