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Big south Americans in planted tank

Gfish

Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
426
Hi all,

I'm fairly new to this and have gotten into fish species that most folk wouldn't dream of putting in a planted tank. But after much research I set up my 5ft x 2ft x 2.5ft high tank and used onion plants, java fern and anubias only.

The fish I have are:-
6 x Myleus Schomburgkii - black bar silver dollars
6 x Geophagus aff. Altifrons Rio Xingu
3 x L200 Green phantom plecs
1 x L128 Blue phantom plec
Also some lemon tetras, otocinclus and mini ancistrus

All went really well at first with the plants growing extremely well, especially the onion plants and anubias. As I introduced more fish I upped filtration to where I am now with an FX5 and an Eheim 2028. And things steadily went downhill. Well, plants stopped growing, so after discussions with the guy I bought plants from I purchased Tropica and then later easycarbo to help deal with some Blackbush algae. The stuff seems to work but not well enough and vie had to chop and cut leaves back quite alot. My java which was a huge bunch, fairly central and high in the tank, was such a mess that I cut it back to the base. This has showed no sign of returning :(
Recently after more discussions I started using Tropica+ and although I was very hesitant because the addition of nitrates and phosphates and the fish I keep, in particular the cichlids, I went with advice and have been using it for about 2 weeks now. I've been alternating and trying to find the best regime of dosing but I'm still unsure and I'm fighting off the algae while watching new shoots appear but amongst loads of damaged leaves so its a long way from looking good again. I will cut the old leaves away when I add more plants. I intend doubling the amount of anubias with another type, and adding some water fern perhaps as well as some thin leaved javas.
My lights are 2 T5 tubes 54watt and although its considered a low ish lighted tank, the plants are not in the substrate so most sit closer to the light.

I'm debating on CO2 and I'm wondering if the ferts I'm using at the moment Tropica, Tropica+ and easycarbo are enough?

I don't want to give up on having a planted tank with these fish, and to be honest the fish munching leaves is the smallest problem. I'm struggling to find the balance but feel like algae is always around the corner, and as I fight the algae and cut back, the growth is not near fast enough to keep up.

I will post up a pic of my display soon, but welcome all thoughts and suggestions from the experienced here.

My aim is to have a tank that does not require loads of work, due to time restraints, so minimal ferts would be good, and if I add CO2 then it hopefully will make the work I do worthwhile, as opposed to now, where I'm up to my armpits every night and fighting a losing battle it seems.
The fish do nibble new leaves when still soft so hopefully CO2 increasing growth and adding more plants should prove to be the best way forward.
PLEASE come forward, I'm a bit of a novice here and could do with friendly advice :)

QUESTIONS I have include:-
Has upping filtration stripped my water of nutrients required?
Does high stocking and big fish make things difficult to maintain a decent planted display?
And the onion plants. Should I use root tablets?

I look forward to chatting with you all and thanks to you in advance for anything that helps.

Cheers

Gavin
 
I'd love to see a picture of this tank.

Can you tell us what substrate you have, how frequently you do water changes and how much?

The symptoms you describe would indicate insufficient CO2 to meet the plant requirements but you don't always have to add CO2 to grow plants. If you want low maintenance then a low tech approach is probably the best - you can look at the low tech part of the forum for more info.

I have noticed when adding a new filter or cleaning the media of an existing filter a small drop off in the rate of growth of my plants it only last a few days though. Maybe the extra filter is creating turbulence on the surface and driving off CO2?
 
Hi,

Here's a link to a thread elsewhere on my tank. I will maybe post a pic of 'then and now' to show the difference, and it may bring a tear to my eye :(

http://www.eacichlid.co.uk/showthread.p ... anted-home

Ive used Pool Filter sand as substrate, mainly because of the Geophagus and the way they sift to feed and dig to spawn, and pretend to spawn. I have plecs that dig a bit too so having only a few substrate based plants was the way to go I think.

I do a 50% waterchange once a week.

Good point on the Co2 being removed by surface disturbance. This is something I addressed recently as my fish were breathing heavily. The tank needed more oxygenation so I re positioned the spraybar from my Eheim and now have it blasting across the surface from the front right corner.

Initially the silver dollars seemed great and the tank didn't need much in the way of surface agitation to keep things oxygenated enough. But around the time the plant growth slowed, the fish, mainly the Geos started to breathe heavy so I had to agitate the surface much more. But thinking of the way things work it makes me want to increase plants and also aim to increase plant growth to keep the tank oxygen level up during photosynthesis. I guess id need an airstone on a timer for overnight though then yes?

Id like to get to where the plant growth outcompetes the algae growth, whether that be through Co2 or not.

Cheers

Gavin
 
Anyone offer anything to help me on this ??????
 
Yes,
The first thing that you ought to do is to comply with the previous poster's request for photograph of the setup so that a proper analysis can be performed. Giving a link to another forum is a bit cheeky. The photos cannot be viewed unless one joins that forum. So that's immediately off-putting, not because it's a bad forum, but only an inconvenience if one is just trying to see the photo.

Secondly, we are not familiar with the term "Blackburn algae". This is not a common expression of any known algal forms. Again, without a photo to corroborate one is forced to guess just exactly what this is. We can guess that you really meant to say Black Brush Algae or Black Beard Algae (BBA) but unless we positively identify the algae it would be easy to mislead you as to cause and solution. Kindly review the following link => JamesC's Algae Guide and advise if our guess that the algal form is in fact BBA.

Assuming for the moment that this is BBA, you will note from James's guide that this is not nutrient related, so adding more nutrients will never fix BBA, which is strictly related to CO2 instability.

Because chichlid keepers know that they must keep the water clean by doing frequent and large water changes, the negative effects are that CO2 tends to vary wildly with such large changes. Are you using tap water? If so do you let the water sit for a few days or do you use it immediately with conditioner? Or do you use RO and then re-mineralize?

As Brenmuk mentioned above, CO2 enrichment is not always necessary, but if is not used then this places constraints on plant growth. You can use daily amounts of Excel or use gas injection which is more complicated but also much more effective. Plants grow 5X to 10X faster with injected gas (depending on injection rate) and perhaps 2X to 3X faster with Excel/EasyCarbo. Anubias are among the slowest growing plants anyway. Of course one has to be very careful with gas injection because it is extremely toxic to fish so one can use a combination of low injection rate and combine that with Excel/EasyCarbo addition.

There is no need to use TPN if you are already using TPN+.
TPN is a micronutrient mix whereas TPN+ is exactly the same micronutrient mix with NPK added.
In the long run, it will be much cheaper on a 5 footer to buy the dry salts instead, but that's your choice.

Filters do not remove nutrients from the water column. Filter bacteria add NO3 as a result of the nitrogen cycle.
High stocking is not really an issue if you do good water changes. The excrement is generally good, because the plants use the waste products, but if it builds up too much then it becomes problematic.
If your fish produce plenty of waste I wouldn't think you need to add anything to the substrate. Again, we really don't know f you have a nutrient problem (I suspect not with all those fish) until we identify the algae.

Cheers,
 
Hi,

Thanks so much for your great reply.
Firstly, I use an IPhone for all forum correspondence, and great though they may be they make silly assumptions on spelling and 'Blackburn' should have most definitely been Blackbush.

I wasn't aware that viewing of my thread pics on the other forum was limited to only their members. That's unfortunate, and yes, it may seem cheeky to send folk to another forum to view tank pics, but my only reason for this is that im unable to post pics here using Tapatalk on my IPhone. This is how ive posted pics on a couple of other forums but on here it's not possible and I asked the question but apparently it just ain't happening.

Thanks for putting me right on a few things, and the link you gave to ID algae is the site I've used. Its very good.

My concern with carrying on as I have with easycarbo is the very thing you mentioned, the level not being constant. I add the amount every evening and it comes in one go rather than steadily and slowly throughout the day.

My waterchanges probably don't help matters, now that you've pointed this out. I use tapwater, and I run it through a hose from the Tap slowly over the period of an hour or so. Id love to be in a position to have RO water, but there's way too many issues restricting me, so for the forseeable future, tapwater it is. On my smaller tanks, my 3ft and my daughters 2ft, I use tapwater conditioner, as the rate at which I re fill is so much faster.

Initially I was only using TPN as a fertiliser, but when plants seemed to be not growing any longer I was advised that the tank needed nitrates and phosphates and to use TPN+ for a week then drop back to a routine of mixing the two throughout the week.
My worries of adding nitrates and phosphates to the tank I have with the kind of fish in it are still strong, but I feel I must follow advice and this was someone who knows alot more than I do, so ive took note. So far.
Im unsure, very unsure, but the argument ive had put to me is that once I have the plants growing again they will outcompete the algae for nutrients. But if an imbalance of CO2 is the problem, then Im probably wasting my time huh?

The appeal of CO2 injection is growing so much.
As I see it so far, and please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere or ive missed something:-

Obvious increase in plant growth. This helps when there's fish that nibble the young leaves that so far are growing very slowly.

To get a constant rate of CO2 in the tank. Hopefully this will make control of algae like I have now, much much easier.

And another plus which I've only recently learnt. It reduces PH. Hallelujah! :)

I'm going on holiday next Saturday for 8 days and I'm tempted to try a blackout on the tank to destroy this algae. Would you say there's any downside to this?
My worries are the fish may eat eachothers fins, the lemon tetras and the plants. Whatever happens I think I'll be buying more plants in September, but should I buy CO2 injection, that's my big decision.

I may eventually replace my little eheim 2028 for another FX5. More power, flow, circulation, media etc. Any downside to this do you think?

Thanks again, and if you wish I can email or try to PM some photos to you, or anyone else who's interested.

Sorry to make a bad start here guys. My intentions are good and I hope y'all can see that.

Cheers

Gavin
 
Hi,
JamesC is also our tech admin so he might be able to figure out Iphone issues. In any case, photos cannot be uploaded to this site due to bandwith penalty. They must be uploaded to an image hosting site such as Photobucket or Flickr, and then the link to the image can be pasted in your post so that it appears in-line. Copy the URL to the *.jpg, highlight the URL and click the "Img" button located in the row just below the topic title box.

Gfish said:
My concern with carrying on as I have with easycarbo is the very thing you mentioned, the level not being constant. I add the amount every evening and it comes in one go rather than steadily and slowly throughout the day.
Easycarbo biodegrades throughout the day, but this is not a problem if you dose it in the morning just at the beginning of the photoperiod. You may simply need to use much more of it, which gets very expensive on a 5 foot tank. Exclusive use of these Liquid carbon products is strictly for those with smaller tanks, unless money is no object.
Gfish said:
My waterchanges probably don't help matters, now that you've pointed this out. I use tapwater, and I run it through a hose from the Tap slowly over the period of an hour or so. Id love to be in a position to have RO water, but there's way too many issues restricting me, so for the forseeable future, tapwater it is. On my smaller tanks, my 3ft and my daughters 2ft, I use tapwater conditioner, as the rate at which I re fill is so much faster.
Yes, I understand completely. It was not at all my intent to convince you to use RO. I just needed to understand what it is that you do so that I could address the issues properly. We normally don't recommend the use of RO unless there is a really good reason, but we are aware that some specialist fishkeepers do insist on using RO. Tap water is generally very high in CO2, so during the week the plants attempt to adjust to the CO2 level in the tank. When you do a water change, you then introduce high levels of CO2 and in effect fool the plants as they then try to adapt to the new CO2 level. This causes their systems to fail, which triggers the outbreak. The trick therefore is to maintain the level of CO2 the same as that which is in your tap throughout the week. In that way, when you do the water change the difference will not be as great. You simply need to find the level of Easycarbo dosing that will accomplish that. That might be 2X or 3X the bottle recommended dosage on a daily basis. You will probably also need to dose that much to raise the toxicity level high enough to damage the BBA.
Gfish said:
My worries of adding nitrates and phosphates to the tank I have with the kind of fish in it are still strong, but I feel I must follow advice and this was someone who knows alot more than I do, so ive took note. So far.
Well, chiclid lovers all over the world are frightened to death of nitrate and phosphate. It's almost like a religion, yet the fact remains that no one has yet demonstrated or established a toxicity level for PO4. We assume there must be a point where the PO4 level has toxic effects but we haven't found it and many here dose high levels of PO4, myself included. The studies that have been performed on NO3 toxicity has been done primarily on species such as trout and salmon, not on tropicals. In any case, there is a huge difference between the nitrate that evolves from the organic waste in the tank and the nitrate that you add via dosing. The toxicity of organically derived NO3 (fish waste, food decay, detritus and so forth) is not due to the NO3 itself, it's really due to the process of nitrification and of the toxic compounds that the NO3 starts off as. Decay and waste generate ammonia/ammonium (NH3/NH4) which is extremely toxic. The bacteris then convert the ammonia to Nitrite (NO2) which is only slightly less toxic than ammonia. In order to accomplish this they use oxygen from the water column, thus stealing it from the fish. Then, other bacteria strip even more oxygen from the water column to generate NO3. NO3 is therefore the smoking gun. The fish are exposed to two counts of toxicity (NH4/NO2) combined with hypoxia to boot. At the end of this toxic cycle people measure NO3 content and get hysterical.

In a planted tank, the plants (when healthy) actually consume NH4/NH3 and they discharge oxygen back into the water column. The NO3 that you add is inorganic. It does not have to go through the toxic cycle and does not steal oxygen from the water column. It's already fully formed. It also helps the plants tremendously thereby lowering the total toxic effects in the tank and boosting the fishes health by oxygenation. It's therefore pointless to worry about dosing inorganic nutrients because they are your staunchest allies, not your enemies.
Gfish said:
Im unsure, very unsure, but the argument ive had put to me is that once I have the plants growing again they will outcompete the algae for nutrients.
Well you can be sure that on this planet, plants will never out-compete algae - EVER. This is simply not a good way to think about the relationship between plants and algae at all. Algae require thousands of times less nutrients and CO2 to prosper than plants do. But algae are programmed to respond to certain stimuli that occur quite frequently in your tank. These stimuli have origins billions of years old, so that the path to success is to understand the nature of these stimuli and to simply avoid or to minimize them. Effectively, all the stimuli boil down to plant health. When plants are healthy algae retreat. When plants are unhealthy algae dominate the environment. The idea therefore is to feed the plants, to keep the tank as clean as possible, to provide adequate levels of CO2 and to avoid excessive lighting. This will result in excellent plant health and algae will be convince to retreat. Never think of plants competing with algae. Healthy plants simply influence their environment such that the stimuli for algae to flower and bloom is negated to a certain extent.

As you've deduced, you have a major issue with the CO2 part of the equation and when you fix this then you will be well on the way.

Cheers,
 
Hi

My lighting is not excessive but one thing I'm concerned of is that the main area of planted wood is sitting above mid height in the tank, and obviously even in a low lit tank this means it's getting way more light than plants in the substrate would. So this could be causing algae to thrive, yes?
And on another thought, rather than have a 9 or 10 hour lighted period, would having two separate 4 hour periods be better for example?
I heard something about how it takes most plants 30 mins or so to start to photosynthesise yet it takes most algae 4 hours. Is this true?

Thanks

Gavin
 
Hi,
No, it's not true at all. This is yet another myth created by folks who understand neither plants nor algae. That old wives tale is merely another incantation of the "plants-outcompeting-algae" syndrome. Think about how quickly algae took hold in your tank and how quickly it devastates your plants. Do you recall the explanation palaeontologists give for the demise of the dinosaurs? That one or more giant meteor collisions with Earth caused a blackout and worldwide temperatures to fall? The dinosaurs didn't fare so well due to loss of food but the small furry mammals flourished.

Well, higher plants are like the Brontosaurus, and algae are like the small furry mammals. Not only was there not enough food for the large animals, but they were also cold blooded and complicated. It took a long time to get their complex bodies warmed up and operating at peak efficiency, whereas the small mammals not only required much less food, but were warm blooded. Everything about the design of those small mammals was optimized to deal with dynamic transition, hardship and deprivation. Everything about the design of the lumbering Brontosaurus was optimized around excess and stable environmental conditions. So when there was plenty of food and stable, warm cosy temperatures the Brontosaurus and their cousins dominated the land, but when there was a transition and hardship they failed miserably, yet the small mammals were able to take advantage and multiply.

In the above analogy the plants are the Brontosaurus and algae are the small furry mammals. They thrive on dynamic conditions and hardship because they are built for speed, efficiency, endurance and tenacity. Algae cannot be outrun, outpaced or outwitted. What we do know is that they prefer hardship and dynamic transition and they dislike stable cosy conditions. Conversely, plants do well in stable cosy conditions and do not adapt well to dynamic transition. Think about the BBA for example. One of the reasons that they have such a hold is because of the transitive CO2 conditions, an environment that the plants dislike intensely. Algae respond almost instantaneously to change, whereas higher plants require more time to adapt. Being smaller, faster and more efficient, algae are sprinters. Plants are marathoners. If anything, plants are the ones that suffer more under the transitive nature of light cycling. Generally, it's better to keep a constant photoperiod so that the plants can produce the food they need to survive and to simply shorten the length of time that the lights are on or to lower the intensity if necessary.

Cheers,
 
Cheers for that explanation :) I like the way you put it.
Now I just need to kill lots of small furry animals and we'll be doing ok lol

There does seem to be alot of old wives tales in fishkeeping. Someone should write a book on them as a beginners guide. It would be both hilarious and a huge success im sure.

I am thinking of introducing a floating plant to my tank one day, which would help, along with my onion plant leaves, to shade the anubias in the upper middle of the tank.
I have kind of made a decision to try CO2 injection, so once back from my holiday I will need to take a look at funds and see how soon I can get set up.
If algae arises again then I will look at time and intensity of lights but I hope and feel it shouldn't be a problem down the line.

If I intend to stay with liquid ferts initially, is the Tropica stuff a good choice?

Cheers
 
Hi,
Yes, as commercial ferts go TPN+ is as good as any, but one of our sponsors, Aquaessentials has made their own brand of trace element mix, liquid carbon and macro mix. Check out this page => AE Design Aqua Nourish Set 1000ml

This set contains 3 products, their trace mix, called Aqua Nourish, their macro mix called Aqua Nourish+, and their alternative to easycarbo called Aqua Carbon. These will be cheaper in the long run than the Tropica products for a 5 footer. Might even qualify for free shipping.

Ultimately you'll find that these are still about 100 times as expensive as just buying the dry powders, which are the raw stock from which all these products are mixed with water, but they'll work just fine. I just don't like paying for water. I've got plenty of it coming out of the tap, for which I'm already getting a bill, for goodness sakes.

Cheers,
 
So if I ever decided to use the powders, how many different ones would I need?

Thanks :)
 
Hi

I don't know what your name is, but thanks for all the pointers and these links. Looks like Aquaessentials have it all for getting started with dry ferts. I used them to buy dragonstone for my first tank design on my 3ft last year. Looks like I may be purchasing there once again before too long.

I need to look at the co2 kit to go with, or indeed to build. As my tanks of a considerable size, those teeny bottles are not much use. And there's many questions this new piece of equipment will pose. Thankfully, this site has most things covered, so I'll read lots on it all.

Thanks again,

Gavin
 
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