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CO2 choices and decisions ???

Gfish

Gfish

Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
426
Hi,

Firstly, please excuse the ignornance, I'm reading as many related threads as I can but just can't help wondering how to decide all the following points when setting up CO2 injection:-

I realise I will need a large bottle, as my tank is 5x2x2.5 and probably holds around 540litres after wood, stone and sand are taken into account.
Is a bottle a bottle? Can I buy and use any regulator with any gas bottle? What needs considering here?

Needle valve, solenoid and non return valve. Ive read of these items but want to know if they're all necessary and how to go about choosing what's right for my setup?

I gather CO2 hose is fairly standard? Do we just need this and a handful of olives to help connect it all up?

Diffuser. How do I choose the best for my tank, again, what do I need to consider?

Once all these important decisions have been made and I have all the gear, what should determine my bubble count setting? And where to place the diffuser?
It was at first suggested to me that it should go beneath one of my filter intakes, but I've read here that this can cause erosion of rubber seals in the filter so I'm reluctant to follow this advice.

Solenoid for running a timer. I was also initially advised to have a 2 bubble per second rate set and have it run 24/7. I'm worried to try this, what are the feelings on this considering the fish I have?

Are there any items ive missed?

My tank is by most folks standards a low ish lit tank. It has two 4ft 54watt T5 and a mini strip T8 for a moonlight bulb. However, as the tank is designed around the fish I keep, eartheater Geophagus cichlids, (as well as silver dollars and plecs) the substrate is fairly plant free apart from 3 onion plants. The majority of my plants are on wood and some sit high in the tank, so although it's considered low light, for these plants they've got to be experiencing a high light existence.

My flow is strong and filtration is by 1x FX5 and 1 x eheim pro 2 2028. I have the fx5 making minimal surface disturbance at the rear left, and the eheim flow via a spraybar which blasts along the surface at the front right.
I raised this to give more oxygenation when fish were breathing fast recently, and its helped enormously so I'd be worried to take this away from them.

I realise this is an unusual setup on here and I've already posted to get advice regarding my plants and Blackbush algae. My decision to try CO2 is pretty solid now, so it's time to learn and get my act together.

Cheers

Gavin
 
I've had the silver dollars now from an inch in size to 6 inches and they've take the occasional nibble but have never demolished any plant I've had. I even bought a cheap as chips very soft leaved stem plant that the shop assistant said they'd eat, and I hoped they would. They tried it and then left it alone.
The ones I have are black barred silver dollars, Myleus Schomburgkii, and in my tank now the new leaves of my anubias sometimes get chomped but I have a feeling its the Geophagus that are doing it. Either way, once I increase growth with CO2, and add alot more plants to the tank this will hardly be noticeable.
All the horror stories I heard of silver dollars demolishing tanks, the bit they seem to forget to mention are things like, they were moved into a small holding tank and they ate the plants, they weren't fed for a while and they ate the plants, etc etc. Ive found that if they're fed well they steer clear, and that goes for smaller fish too. They supposedly eat tetras too you see.
They're still one of my favourite fish. Stunning creatures!

Right, I will read that link now. Cheers :)
 
hi i can only go by my experience of silver dollars you may wish to read this
http://www.lfkc.co.uk/index.php?topic=4 ... 39#msg3339
i to am a fish person who also wanted plants you may be able to save yourself a few pounds if you read it . i still have that tank with fish , but as my intrest in plants has grown ive decided to get another tank for plants which is large like yours its been running 5 wks now and its a battle to get the co2 distribution correct the lighting correct its not as easy as attaching a co2 cylinder and you end up with a great fish and plant tank you may be lucky . my plan at the moment is to beat the algae i have now, get the planted tank how i want it and then introduce some dwarf cichilids , if i can help you with any of the mistakes ive made feel free to ask .
 
Gfish said:
I've had the silver dollars now from an inch in size to 6 inches and they've take the occasional nibble but have never demolished any plant I've had. I even bought a cheap as chips very soft leaved stem plant that the shop assistant said they'd eat, and I hoped they would. They tried it and then left it alone.
The ones I have are black barred silver dollars, Myleus Schomburgkii, and in my tank now the new leaves of my anubias sometimes get chomped but I have a feeling its the Geophagus that are doing it. Either way, once I increase growth with CO2, and add alot more plants to the tank this will hardly be noticeable.
All the horror stories I heard of silver dollars demolishing tanks, the bit they seem to forget to mention are things like, they were moved into a small holding tank and they ate the plants, they weren't fed for a while and they ate the plants, etc etc. Ive found that if they're fed well they steer clear, and that goes for smaller fish too. They supposedly eat tetras too you see.
They're still one of my favourite fish. Stunning creatures!

Right, I will read that link now. Cheers :)
Click to expand...

wish i'd known that as both the missus and i really fancied these but were put off in a number of aquatic stores which advised against it. too late now, i'm fully stocked!
 
I think with silver dollars, there are things to be careful of and obviously choice of plants is important.
What I've also learnt is that the many kinds of silver dollar seem to have very different feeding preferences. Mine are not the regular silver dollars, they're black barred silver dollars and they are eating machines, especially when they're small. They beat any fish in the tank to the food, any food, and their appetite is huge.

People feed these fish lettuce leaves, and to me that's like giving a puppy a shoe to play with, then scolding it for chewing your shoes down the line. I've never fed mine lettuce leaves. For greens they get spirulina flake.

I'm not saying they don't eat the plants, because they do occasionally nibble new leaves, but its never been enough to ruin the look of a tank, and I dont have access to a pc often enough to post pics up, but if you or anyone else sends me a PM with email address I'd really like to send pics of my planted tank and the fish I keep.

Another mistake I think is buying small numbers of these. The more there are the more they stick together it seems. Id never have less than 6 dollars, and one day I'd like to try 20 :)

Ok, back to the post, like I tried to say, the fish really are not my problem, the algae is, im cutting leaves away quicker than theyre growing, and I put this down to imbalance of Co2 more than anything else, as I use a liquid additive so far rather than CO2 injection.

So with added growth rate from CO2 it should minimise visible nibbled leaves and minimise the Blackbeard algae.
I have to give this a go, and hey, if down the line I sell my cool fish and decide to buy a handful of tetras instead I shall already have the co2 set up to build a conventional planted tank.
At this stage I just can't help it, I want the fish I have in a stunning tank.
This is what I'm wanting help with.

Cheers :)
 
Gfish said:
I realise I will need a large bottle, as my tank is 5x2x2.5 and probably holds around 540litres after wood, stone and sand are taken into account.
Is a bottle a bottle? Can I buy and use any regulator with any gas bottle? What needs considering here?
Click to expand...
Hi Gavin,
FE cylinders and other industrial refillable cylinders use a standard shutoff valve which means the connector to the regulator is also standard. This is the same regulator and connector that you would find in a welding supply shop for example.

The disposable type bottles, as see here=> Disposable CO2 Systems have proprietary fittings which must have an adapter to fit on to the industrial standard cylinders. These are not for your case.

Look at this assembly => AE Regulator & Solenoid Assembly You can probably find the components on e-bay or other places for cheaper but at least this gives you an idea of what to get. Enlarge the photo and you see that on the right end are the two gauges. One gauge tells you the cylinder pressure and the other gauge tells you the reduced working pressure. At the lower middle of the assembly (just below the TMC logo) you can see the hex-head nut which attaches to the cylinder valve. I think this is a 7/8ths inch hex nut. This is the entry point from the cylinder to the regulator. On the left end of the assembly is the solenoid, which is the black object on the bottom (you can see the power cord on the far lower left) and at the upper left is the knurled head of the needle valve as well as the exit port. This valve controls the bubble rate of the injected gas.
Here is an example of a non return valve Aquarium Gardening Check Valve They are sold as metal or plastic. Obviously the metal valves are sturdier, if a bit more expensive. You need to install this valve at the exit port of the regulator or further downstream to prevent water from flooding your regulator. The arrow follows the direction of gas flow which means the arrowhead points away from the regulator.
You need to buy CO2 resistant tubing, not just any old airline tubing. Nuff said.

If I were you, and if it is affordable, I would contact the B.O.C. because they have serious cylinders and re-fill service. Tell them you need a vapor cylinder and check the prices. The CO2 inside the cylinder is liquid but vapor cylinders allow the CO2 to expand to gaseous form. The other type of cylinder (liquid) is used for freezing pipes and so forth, and is most often used in other industrial application. Do not get this type of cylinder.

For a large tank such as yours I would suggest an in-line diffuser such as an Aquamedic 1000 which is mounted outside the tank. This give much better diffusing but must be attached to the filter outlet. Best to drive it via dedicated filter to be sent to the spraybar. If possible, buy extra sections of spraybar to run the length of the back wall.

You'll also need to measure your CO2 content, so you'll need any Dropchecker that strikes your fancy. Please be sure to read the Tutorial CO2 MEASUREMENT USING A DROP CHECKER


Cheers
 
Hi,

That's exactly what I need, thanks so much!

I will take a quick look around at alternative regulators with solenoids, but I've no wish to order off eBay from Taiwan or Hong Kong to save me money, I'd rather pay the price and get the backup service and advice from a UK retail establishment/mail-order business. There seems to be only a handful that really impress, and I think we should support them. Thats my feelings anyway.

I will try contacting BOC, and I must ask for a vapour type CO2 bottle yes?
I'm also going to be asking around friends and family who perhaps know folk who run pubs etc to find a large CO2 bottle for me.
Once I have it all which will hopefully be in the first half of September, I'll be coming back to ask what bubble rate to start off with. I appreciate it's all trial and error for a while but it would be nice to get it started somewhere near right.

Would having the Co2 come in through the diffuser and via a long spraybar along the back of the tank be best? And if so, should it be near the surface but pointed down at an angle? Would a small external be ok for this? I'm running out of room :)
If I manage to find a big cylinder, its going in the next room. I must mention that one to the missus soon.
I have looked at a 5kg Fire extinguisher and it would be too tall with the regulator on to fit in my cabinet.

And then there's the dry ferts! Oh that's for another day :)

Thanks again, you're a font of knowledge with a no nonsense approach that's very much appreciated. And I think I saw your name said by another guy here somewhere. Are you Clive?

One final important question; are all TMC CO2 V2 regulators the same? Ive reserved one and im just wondering if the 'V2' is the model and I've reserved the correct thing????


Cheers

Gavin
 
Yep, that's me!

Get some ideas about spraybar and powerhead placement it in these threads:
Difference in drop checker readings in different positions
Water flow in the planted aquarium?

Yeah, suppliers of Pub CO2 bottles are also a good source. Will probably be cheaper than BOC as well.

The AE website shows two different versions of the regulator. I'd probably avoid the one shown with a single gauge as I'm not familiar enough with that brand. I would only get the one that I reference in my earlier post. I know that one fits the standard cylinders. Besides, the assembly comes complete and ought to be worry free.

Cheers,
 
My Co2 bottle is from a pub gas supplier. Its around 40Kg . I rent this from them at a annual cost of about £35 and its about the same amount to get it refilled. I also have a couple of 6kg ones from them which I use when the big bottle runs out as I can only get to them at certain times depending on work.
Buy the best Regulator / soliniod and needle valve you can afford. Its money well spent.

6.5kg bottle with the 40kg+ one.
My bottles live outside now.

SG1L2813Medium.jpg



Simon
 
Hi Simon,

So what size tank is yours and how long does that huge cylinder last you?
Yes, ive been reading up and I think I'll be following advice on here for the All singing and dancing regulator with all the toys attached. Now I need to get my head around the expense of a good diffuser.

It's certainly mounting in cost this CO2 injection.

Clive,

I read up on the spraybar and it makes sense. However I have good circulation already with the FX5 and pro2 facing eachother but one in the far left corner, the other in the front right on a short spraybar.
Also, my plants are high in the tank, so the need to circulate Co2 down the front glass is not as important. If I have a long spraybar directed at an angle it will hit about 80% of my plants straight away and then get circulated through the tank. I think :)

Cheers for now

Gavin

P.s. Your plants look great by the way. I couldn't see any fish though ;)
 
Hi Gavin,
You need to keep a sense of perspective regarding CO2. Not everyone uses the same amount of gas, and having spent the cash for equipment, it's costs are amortized over the length of your time of your hobby. If your lighting is low and the risk to your particular type of fish is high, then you will use much less CO2 and live with a slower growth rate than someone whose main focus is maximum plant growth rate alone.

From an economic standpoint, the cost of using Easycarbo to accomplish what you can achieve with gas would be astronomical as well as possibly being highly toxic.

Your injection technique is a means to an end, so you can increase growth rates generally and maintain CO2 stability to minimize some forms of algae. The larger the fish, generally the more susceptible they are to blood acidosis due to CO2, so you have to sacrifice top end growth rate because your fish are much larger than a rummy nose tetras, for example, which are almost impervious to CO2. Because you already have fish in your tank you have to approach CO2 with caution and respect, otherwise you can annihilate the fish in your tank in less time than it takes to say "Turn down the bubble rate".

If you are handy, you can have a go at Ed Seeley's DIY Reactor - pictures, assembly and testing which is as effective as the other reactors mentioned for a fraction of the cost.

Simon's exercise can be found here=> My venture into my new 760 ltr planted tank But this is a completely different set of objectives.

Cheers,
 
just built my reactor, modified to fit my cabinet slightly. honestly a piece of cake.
 
Clive,

I'm just trying to work out if keeping a smaller cylinder for my tank which fits in the cabinet will be ok. If it only lasts a few weeks that's no good, but if as you say I'm not going to be using much gas then I wonder how long I'd get out of let's say a 3.5kg bottle?

That thread on building your own reactor couldn't have done a better job of putting me off! I so wanted to give it a go when I first started reading, but by about page 7 when the design was showing flaws and endless trials on bleed valves, and other things, with occasional mentions of leaking and bubbles not doing what they're meant to do, well, by the time I got to page 13 or whatever at about 18 months later the guy still seemed like he hadn't perfected it, and he certainly hadn't supplied other guys with their built reactors.

Time is at a premium with me, possibly moreso than money (and I don't have bags of that either!) I think if a home made job costs close to half what the AQuamedic 1000 does, and with all the time and possible mistakes to be made then I'll probably just buy the latter.

Hi gollum...,
How much do you think yours cost you? And was it the same design or slightly different? Is there any need for the bleed valve? And did you have a T piece inline to introduce the Co2 before the reactor or does yours bring the gas straight into the cylinder?

I now have a couple of rather important questions to raise:-

Do any folk run low level of bubbles and run it 24/7 ?
Ive heard they do, but I'm not sure of the pros and cons. The obvious worry is too much Co2 for the fish at night. But could airpumps on a timer counteract that?

Also, is there varying grades or qualities of Co2?

And that project of Simons is awesome! I'll read it all eventually :) cheers
He's a very technically minded fella who has designed an impressive setup, and admits he has no artistic flare.
Id like to think of myself with more artistic flare than technical ability, but I'm fighting it, and trying to learn this side of fishkeeping too :)

Cheers

Gavin
 
Hi Gavin

Gfish said:
Do any folk run low level of bubbles and run it 24/7 ?
Ive heard they do, but I'm not sure of the pros and cons. The obvious worry is too much Co2 for the fish at night. But could airpumps on a timer counteract that?
Click to expand...
As plants don't use CO2 at night it's a no brainer really, especially on larger tanks. If you have no problems with good circulation you will have no problems achieving the correct levels if you turn your gas on 2 hours before lights on. It also gives your fish a break. Why waste it?
Gfish said:
Also, is there varying grades or qualities of Co2?
Click to expand...
Yes there is, but don't let that worry you. Buy the cheapest you can get. CO2 is CO2 so your plants won't care what grade it is :D
 
Gfish said:
I'm just trying to work out if keeping a smaller cylinder for my tank which fits in the cabinet will be ok. If it only lasts a few weeks that's no good, but if as you say I'm not going to be using much gas then I wonder how long I'd get out of let's say a 3.5kg bottle?
Click to expand...
Hi mate,
Well normally, for those with very high lighting and very large tanks, 4Kg is annoying because it doesn't last very long. But it's very difficult for other people to assess your situation from a distance. If you can borrow or rent a 4Kg pub bottle on the cheap then it's best to try it out and see how it goes. The technology and techniques are the same whether you use 4Kg or 40Kg, so in this sense it doesn't matter for now. If your lighting is on the low side and if you're just getting your feet wet then there is no need to start out with a massive cylinder. Figure out your consumption first before committing to massive projects. The BOC is always an option, but if pub cylinder suppliers fit your need then there is no need to stress.

Gfish said:
That thread on building your own reactor couldn't have done a better job of putting me off! I so wanted to give it a go when I first started reading, but by about page 7 when the design was showing flaws and endless trials on bleed valves, and other things, with occasional mentions of leaking and bubbles not doing what they're meant to do, well, by the time I got to page 13 or whatever at about 18 months later the guy still seemed like he hadn't perfected it, and he certainly hadn't supplied other guys with their built reactors.
Click to expand...
Hmm, oh well, it just goes to show how different people can read the same thing and come away with completely different opinions. :D I thought it was a smashing success. Maybe it's because we understand reactors and CO2 injection a little more than you do. Ed is a schoolteacher and is very busy, plus he was trying to build units for a half a dozen other people and his supplier dried up. The thread was all about trying to optimize the unit, first having the tube empty and then using bio-balls and then with other media. He concluded that empty was better, but he had to try it to find out. There were some issues with leaky fittings and so forth but nothing major. Other people copied his design and had no issues whatsoever. Some had to actually lower their injection rate because the unit was so efficient at dissolving CO2. Some decided to shorten the tube, or to use different materials to fit their needs. These were all good things. CO2 application is the single most difficult exercise in a planted tank. Nothing else even compares in degree of difficulty, simply because of it's toxicity, yet it's worthwhile because of it's outstanding effects.
Gfish said:
Time is at a premium with me, possibly moreso than money (and I don't have bags of that either!) I think if a home made job costs close to half what the AQuamedic 1000 does, and with all the time and possible mistakes to be made then I'll probably just buy the latter.
Click to expand...
Fair enough mate. AM1000 is a good unit, but it does use an undersized diameter input hose which makes it inefficient. This was one of the issues Ed solved by using the 16mm inside diameter hose. You'll have to ensure therefore that you have a strong filter to power the AM1000, otherwise it increases your CO2 consumption.


Cheers
 
Ceejay,

May sound odd, but I'm more worried about the fish than the plants :) ???
I'm wondering if anyone ever keeps big fish in a nice planted tank??? I feel all alone sometimes. lol



Clive,

So there's not even a perfect commercially available reactor!? Ah, maybe I'll design and build my own afterall.
If I did use the Aquamedic, would a Pro 2 2028 be strong enough?
What do you use by the way?

Cheers

Gavin
 
Gfish said:
So there's not even a perfect commercially available reactor!? Ah, maybe I'll design and build my own afterall.
If I did use the Aquamedic, would a Pro 2 2028 be strong enough?
What do you use by the way?
Click to expand...
No there are no perfect reactors. The DIY ones come the closest. I use two of 17mm variety of these=> Cal Aqua In-Line Diffusers

I'm not sure where you can buy these now. AquaEssentials used to sell them. Contact Richard and he might be able to source them. They are very small but very expensive. If space and convenience are at a premium then these ought to be considered.
They look something like this installed, which takes up about 10X less space than an AM1000:
2587489100038170470S600x600Q85.jpg


Just about any filter can power these reactors, but generally their efficiency and effectiveness improve vastly as the filter flow rate increases. The 2028 is on the low end of the power spectrum for mating to AM1000, especially since the inlet spuds to the reactor are so absurdly narrow, 12mm I believe. This chokes the flow from the filter, reducing their efficiency.

Cheers,
 
Hi all

The AM 1000 now comes with tapered tail pieces. An obvious improvement on previous models.
So if you are using pipe with a 12mm internal diameter no further action is required, just push the pipe straight on. If you want to use 16mm internal diameter pipe then the tail piece has to be cut back to the fatter part (if that makes sense).
Every picture you see on the web of the AM1000 shows the older model with the straight 12mm tail piece.
I'm running mine on the 16mm pipe.
I think the original design had one fundamental flaw. They say it is good for a 500 gallon tank and expected you to supply it through a 12 mm pipe. Let's get real for a minute :lol:
Hope that helps.
 
Good info Chris. Didn't realize they had changed the design. Gotta give it to Am for listening.

Cheers,
 
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