New growth deficiency using EI

[Oz_planter]

Hi all,

I don't post much to this forum, so I hope you don't mind me asking a question as I would really appreciate any help you can give me.

I dose EI on my 180 ltr tank as per instructions I received in this forum previously and everything has been going great for months, plants really taking off, the only algae was some stubborn green spot on my anubius which I am still trying to erradicate. However over the last couple of months I have noticed that new growth is coming through distorted. At first it was only the Hygrophilla, then it was the Pogostemmon Stellata and now it is also affecting my Sword...

Initially after doing some googling I found that the symptoms matched deficiency in two elements; Boron and Calcium. As my water is 15 degrees GH, there is plenty of calcium so I thought that it may be Boron. As I dose more than enough Boron via Trace Elements, I then suspected that maybe I was not putting in enough MSO4, so I up'ed the dose only to find it getting worse.

If anyone can shed some light on my problem I would really appreciate it!

My Tank Specs are:
Volume:180ltr
Filter:2000lph SunSun

Dosing:
Sun: 100ltr water change, 1/4 tsp Potassium Nitrate, 1/8 tsp PO4, 1 1/2 tbs MSO4
Mon: 1/8-1/4 trace elements
Tues: 1/4 tsp Potassium Nitrate, 1/8 tsp PO4
Wed: 1/8-1/4 tsp trace elements, 1tbs MSO4
Thur: 1/4 tsp Potassium Nitrate, 1/8 tsp PO4
Fri: 1/8-1/4 tsp trace elements

CO2:
3-4 bps via glass diffuser underneath a 200lph powerhead which sprays along the back wall.

Some Images, sorry if they don't come through too well

Hygro new growth

Stellata new growth

Sword new growth

Thank you in advance for your help.

Justin.

 

[ceg4048]

HI,
Leaf distortion is typically CO2/flow issue. Try increasing the injection rate, giving the tank a good trim/rearranging or adding liquid carbon if you are near the fishes limit of injection.

Cheers,

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Assuming the leaves really are that pale green colour? I think it definitely is a deficiency. You've discounted N, K and Mg, so that would leave Fe (Iron) as your next choice for a deficiency that causes chlorosis in new leaves. I'd be tempted to try dosing a small amount of Iron for a while, you need a chelated form and Fe-EDDHA (or Fe-DPTA) would be better than Fe-EDTA at pH7 or above.

cheers Darrel

 

[Oz_planter]

Thank you both for your reply.

I have increased my CO2 slightly, I have been bumping it up a small amount about twice a week and then montioring the fish as one of my discus is very senstive and gets a bit moody if a change too much at once... I though C02 may have been an issue due to the appearance of staghorn algae... I found that for some reason my regulator had turned itself down, I'm guessing my 6kg bottle of CO2 is not going to last a year and a half after all But at £26 for 6kg, i'm not too worried!!!

I am using trace elements that I buy regually from a guy that goes by the name of alcymist on eBay so I'm not sure of the chelator that is used, I will try and contact him to find out. Do you think I maybe should consider making up a mix of trace elements and dose those instead of adding the powder straight to the tank?

During waterchange this Sunday I will trim back all the distorted new growth and cross my fingers...

Thank you again.

Justin

 

[ceg4048]

Hi,
The issue of flow distribution is more complicated than just chopping off the distorted growth. The amount of plant biomass in the tank is leading to increased hunger and blockage of flow, so to keep things healthy you'll need to do a major trim to clear the flow paths. This reduces the overall mass which then reduces the demand for CO2. You may also have a lot of light, which hasn't been addressed.

You can get your traces from whomever sells it the cheapest and you can add it in whatever manner you find most convenient. There is no difference whether you add it directly or add it to water first. Do whatever is easiest for you.

Concentrate more on CO2/flow/distribution. I suspect that flow blockage causes all these issues. I don't think it matters all that much what chelator or what trace mix is being used. The same flow blockage that causes poor CO2 uptake most likely also causes poor NPK uptake and poor trace uptake so you need to fix that problem first.

Cheers,

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Do you think I maybe should consider making up a mix of trace elements

I think Clive is possibly wrong here, and this does make a difference for the trace elements solution (but not for any of the other chemicals). I'd definitely try pre-mixing the trace elements. I'd also buy some Iron chelate on its own. Some of our sponsors will sell it.

An easy check of whether there may be problems with solubility is to add your normal trace element mix to 1 litre of tank water in a beaker, and then leave it for an hour. It should go into solution. If there are any obvious undissolved chemicals left after an hour I'd give it a stir for 5 minutes. If there are still undissolved chemicals this may be your problem.

If you then add a small amount of ascorbic acid (clear spirit vinegar would do), you should find your traces will then dissolve.

cheers Darrel

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Darrel,
The main indication that the OP does not have a trace solubility issue is that he clearly stated that the tank has been fine for months That means unless his supplier radically altered the trace mix recently (which is definitely a possibility) there are no issues with trace solubility. Remember that he's also dosing EI levels of trace. So there is plenty of Fe in the sediment for root uptake even if it does fall out of solution. Justin has not reported any water clouding after adding trace, which is a typical indication of trace precipitates.

I can't see the other two images, but the first image appears to be some variant (or cousin) of Hygrophila polysperma. If that's the case then the pale pink color of the new growth is typical and is not indicative of an iron deficiency. I can't see enough of the stelleta to know whether the bright areas in the image are the reflection of the pale pink abaxial surface or whether that's just a photographic fault. These are fast growing species and in a way are indicator plants. In an enriched tank this tells you that you either have marginal overall levels of CO2 or that you need to turn the gas on earlier. In that first image, I can also see black spots and translucent patches on other leaves, which seem to corroborate poor CO2. So, while there may be an issue with trace element, it pales in comparison with the CO2 issue (pardon the pun).

The real problem with trace mix generally, is that even with chelators, once you add the solution or powders to the the much larger volume of tank water, the concentration of the acid chelation dissipates immediately, so you wind up losing a lot of the benefit of your chelation.

In any case, there is only a very small probability that this problem of distortion has to do with trace elements. We see it in high tech tanks all the time and the evidence indicates it's strictly a CO2 issue. Justin merely assumed that he had a trace issue, which was likely a misdiagnosis.

Cheers,

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Clive point taken and they are all good points (it does look like it might be H. polysperma etc). You are probably right, I'd usually be very sceptical about any trace element deficiency, but that particular look in the photo is common in hydroponically grown plants when the Ca:Mg ratio has become extremely unbalanced or the pH has risen and caused the Fe to be precipitated out of solution. The CO2 issues are outside of my experience or remit, so I can't pass any useful comment on whether this is true of aquatic plants grown under elevated CO2 as well.

The question may really still be whether the new shoots are chlorotic? So back to Oz_planter, are all the new shoots on the plant pale, as well as distorted?

cheers Darrel

 

[Oz_planter]

Hi all,

Thank you for the full replies! Loads of stuff I didn't really think about.

Darrel, in answer to your question, the new growth does look pale in comparison to healthier leaves that are further down the stem i.e. when the tank was ok. Even now after the trim on the weekend the new growth is coming in really really small. Also, the veins of the leaves are really pronounced in the larger leaves, the tissue between the veins looks papery thin, not the normal gull green growth, almost pastel in comparison.

Taking Clives comments into consideration, I am thinking of shortening the spraybar in the hope that the shorter bar will provide more force behind the water thus cutting through the growth and I am also thinking of turning the powerhead towards the front of the tank in the hope that this will contribute to the flow force and also distribute the CO2 more evenly. Do you guys have any thoughts on this?

I remember ages ago I posted, back when I was doing EI incorrectly and one of the problems then was that I was using a fluval 304 which is only 1000lph, so I've opted for a 2000lph filter. Do you think that maybe I should not use a spray bar and maybe consider a lily-pipe type outlet to get the flow paths going again?

Thank you.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Darrel, in answer to your question, the new growth does look pale in comparison to healthier leaves that are further down the stem i.e. when the tank was ok. Even now after the trim on the weekend the new growth is coming in really really small. Also, the veins of the leaves are really pronounced in the larger leaves, the tissue between the veins looks papery thin, not the normal gull green growth, almost pastel in comparison.

This still sound like a deficiency or imbalance in nutrients. This is an Iron (Fe) deficient chlorotic Rose leaf and it just reminds me of your plants.

cheers Darrel

 

[Oz_planter]

Darrel,

Thank you for the pic. The best way of showing why my deficiency looks like is to link out to a good page on aquatic plant central (Does that make me a heretic? )

These images show exactly what is happening in my tank and it is listed under Boron deficiency...
This sword is doing exactly what the new growth on my sword is doing...

and in this last one, I do have this plant, but my symptoms are as pronounced...

Though as you all know, I didn't consider a Boron deficiency as I know that I dose enough...

I will move some stuff around now that I have up'ed my CO2... I have had a bit more of a thorough look tonight and it appears that some plants may be making a recovery (I had a quick look the other night and I think that i was looking at plants i didn't trim) Even the sword has a hint of a non-distorted leaf coming through...

Clive and Darrel, do you recommend that I move the powerhead and shorten the spray bar? Or should I leave well enough alone and put it down to a CO2 issue?

Thanks
Justin.

 

[ceg4048]

Well, I mean, your plants grew fine until recently. That fact validates your existing spraybar configuration and your dosing methods. So you have to think about what changed in the past few months. The difference in your tank now, as opposed to a few months ago is primarily the plant mass, both above and below the sediment.

All you really need to do is to keep the plants trimmed and to adjust your CO2 injection rate. If you suspect that you need more nutrients then simply add more of everything, say, 20% more. That will pretty much fix the problem. As I mentioned before, when dosing EI levels of nutrients you really don't have to worry about low nutrient levels but with strong growth comes blockage and flow distribution issues. So the tank becomes a victim of it's own success.

Now you know what happens in this particular tank, at a certain biomass level, and you know how it must be managed to avoid CO2 shortfalls. There is really no need to reinvent the tanks wheel. Shortening the spraybar reduces the flow across the area vacated by the spraybar, creating more problems than it solves, so this is never a good idea. As a worst case you would need to increase the flow strength into the bar by upgrading the filter. Another option is to reduce the lighting. You can play with the powerhead position to see what effect it has, but troubleshooting has to start by addressing the most likely cause.

If you trim the plants and the distortion goes away then you know that flow blockage and increased feeding demand are the culprit. The same can be said If you don't trim and if you only increase the injection rate.

Be patient and see how it goes the next few weeks. It's more important that you learn what's going on and what corrective actions resolves which issues. That way, if it happens again, you'll know exactly what path to take.

If the distortion goes away but the chlorosis of new leaves remains, then it's logical to assume that you had two problems, and that the second problem is a trace deficiency. Then, just increase the dosage until that goes away. You have to be systematic so that you can identify cause and effect.

About 95% of all problems in a CO2 injected tank is actually due to poorly executed CO2. The remaining 5% is easy.

Keep the tank trimmed and neat. It will look nicer, will remain healthier and will have fewer problems.

Cheers,

 

[Oz_planter]

Hi all,

I know it's been a while, but I thought I would post an update. The distortion is gone! Since I last posted this, I have moved house, so there was a total replant and I have attempted to take flow paths into mind when planting.

One lesson I've learnt from all of this, is that I need to respond to my plants, if there are more plants than they will need more nutrients... I know this sounds obvious, but I never really tied the two together, I thought that the dosing regime is designed to fit my tank size, whereas the dosing regime needs to fit my plant biomass. CO2 is higher than it has ever been, I would be doing about 4-5bps, I know that's high, so I am guessing that my injection method is not the best, but I will leave well enough alone for now. When I upgrade my tank, I may look into an inline reactor.

I want to thank you all for your help!

Justin.

 

[ceg4048]

Hi mate,
Good golly, it has been a while. I figured you were captured by Agent Smith, were drugged, and had you body reinserted back into The Matrix.

Moving house is always a drag, especially with a tank. Hope everything worked out OK.

Yeah, some of the most obvious things tend to be glossed over. Dosing and CO2 application are iterative and interactive procedures. If you have inefficiencies in flow/distribution for whatever reason(s), or if lighting is excessive, then this forces an adjustment for some plants.

Inline reactors/diffusers are better generally, and become more important as tank size, biomass and lighting increases.

Cheers,