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Optimising cascade-style shop plant tanks....

Tom

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8 Sep 2007
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Kawanabe, Kagoshima, Japan 鹿児島県南九州市川辺町
Hi,

I might have to overhaul a plant system in a shop. It's probably a cascade-style system as far as I know, with several tiers flowing down and then overflowing into a sump. Also at a guess, the lighting would be a 150w halide suspended overhead. When the water enters the sump it goes through a very fine mesh sock for mechanical filtration, then gets pumped back up to the top tier.

The plants currently get covered in mainly diatoms within a few days of arrival, which I would assume to combat by raising the light and keeping strict maintenance removing dead leaves etc. The sump is just open space at the bottom, which would limit the effectiveness of bio-media in there - the water would just flow round, not through the media.

Does anyone have any thoughts, experience or tips on optimizing such a system to keep the plants looking respectable until sale (say 2 weeks)? Budgets will be very tight (if any) of course!

Cheers,
Tom
 
I would:
- replace the sump with a large filter
- lots of co2, using a manifold to split a diffuser per level
- EI ferts galore
- 50% water change per week
- light raised

You could do it for £200 I think, with the co2 rig being the most expensive, you could use a cheap filter


.
 
Cheers Luis - I think 200 might be pushing it though to be honest. The budget would be more like £20 I reckon! I know that would likely work, but these shops have silly-low budgets. It'll be a case of doing as much as possible on as little a budget as possible. They don't sell enough plants especially for scaping/growing - more as just to look nice for a little while in a tank - and so just want to keep them presentable for the couple of weeks that they're in stock tanks.

The water changes should get done anyway as the gravel SHOULD be cleaned each week before the plant deliveries.

EI might also be a non-starter. They would want to use products they have on sale only (limited to a single brand of Micros (probably Tetra).

The filter is a good idea, but again it's getting the budget to stretch that far. Systems are designed by a large shopfitter company (and probably still owned by them), who I've heard might not take too well to much modification. That goes back to the working with what's already there idea unfortunately!!

Tom
 
Hi all,
I don't think you need CO2, can you lower the water level/raise the plants so most of the plants are at, or very near the water surface, and then make the flow as turbulent as possible. This should give them access to atmospheric CO2, or at least make sure that gas exchange is optimised. For filtration I'd have a trickle filter on the top box, you should be able to make a box and fill it with AlfaGrog or Ceramic rings etc. If you can fit a lid to one of the tiers (again it just need to be something reasonably transparent, that will stop the humidity escaping too rapidly) you could grow a lot of the plants, Anubias, Echinodorus etc.emersed. Something like the sliding lid of a "Walls Ice cream" freezer would be ideal, allowing easy access to the plants for the public, while maintaining humidity.

Same with fertilisation, I'd use "Osmocote" or similar in a mesh bag in the sump, this will trickle feed nutrients to the plants. If you want a really cheap option "Vitax Q4" or "Growmore" will do. You will need to play around with amount of fertiliser and how often it need replacing.

cheers Darrel
 
You can buy really cheap packs of filter sponge for Koi filters (approx £12 from MA - sure you could find it cheaper). I'd stuff the sump with a couple of coarse pads so that the water couldn't bypass. This biofilitration should knock the diatoms on the head when it matures. You don't say where they source their plants from but if they arrive in the emersed form they migth well stay in better form if they are kept emersed?
Best advice would be for the shop to stock the best plants for the setup - i guess most of their customers want low-tech favourites anyway.
M
 
You can buy really cheap packs of filter sponge for Koi filters (approx £12 from MA - sure you could find it cheaper). I'd stuff the sump with a couple of coarse pads so that the water couldn't bypass. This biofilitration should knock the diatoms on the head when it matures. You don't say where they source their plants from but if they arrive in the emersed form they migth well stay in better form if they are kept emersed?
Best advice would be for the shop to stock the best plants for the setup - i guess most of their customers want low-tech favourites anyway.
M
 
Thanks,

Going with the trickle filter idea - how about a pond-style filter with a spraybar over the top? So the cascade overflows down a pipe into the spray bar. That then distributes water over a bed of media and out through the bottom into the main sump.

Turbulance - for planted tanks it's always recommended that you reduce turbulance to avoid CO2 being lost. Does the reverse happen in a system with very low CO2 content?

I don't think emersed growing will be do-able for this store, unfortunately, although most of the plants are emersed grown. It's also difficult to see the plants through glass in a humid setup due to the condensation. We're targeting the basic fishkeeper rather than the serious plantkeeper. If they have to open a lid to see the plants I think sales might be lost. Just need to keep the plants alive and healthy for a couple of weeks until bought, but I think it will have to be done underwater.

Plant Choice - The shops are not yet able to pick and choose the species they sell - They put in an order based on size, and get a selection sent to them from the supplier. They may soon be able to choose their own, but not for the time being.

Osmocote - If there is not going to be enough CO2 in the water, will the addition of Osmocote or other ferts fuel the algae issue?

Thanks for the all the suggestions, keep em coming!

Tom
 
You got £20.. :)

Then building on what Darrel said.. Use moisture to your advantage. Drop the water really down, maybe just to 10cm on each side, and get an acrylic top for it.

Buy a fogger, cheap from Argos or Maplin, at £14. Stop using the filters, no need for them, the fogger will move the water around. Top up as needed with fresh water.

Please tell the shop that if they use CO2 and show their customers how to use it, then they will eventually sell more plants, more rocks, more wood, more co2, difusers, filters, etc. Once someone get's stuck on aquascaping they are lost to the world. :D
 
Everyday 100% water changes are going to be the cheapest way of preserving plants.
 
My favourite lfs's always have stuff like that going on but I see your point.
Big filters will help, as will minimising light to low level sort of levels.
 
what about rigging up a syphon drain with a hose pipe refill system they can use over night.
 
Actually, what's the size of the tanks?

With £20 we may be overcomplicating the issue.

Buy less plants, more ferns and anubias, use 1 2 grow, floating plants, daily wc either earlier in the morning, traffic is slow, or late a night. Drop some easy carbo in and turn the filters off, use some small filters inside the tanks just for some water movement.

At some shops I go to they have a internal filter, some co2 using the pressurized bottles that fill a sunken container then the co2 slowly dissolves on water with the output of the tier under it.

Cheap and effective way.


.
 
Hi all,
how about a pond-style filter with a spraybar over the top? So the cascade overflows down a pipe into the spray bar. That then distributes water over a bed of media and out through the bottom into the main sump.
That is the sort of thing I had in mind.
Turbulence - for planted tanks it's always recommended that you reduce turbulence to avoid CO2 being lost. Does the reverse happen in a system with very low CO2 content?
Yes, basically as the plants photosynthesise they deplete the water of dissolved CO2. Unless we are actively adding CO2, or have a huge bioload, the atmosphere is richer in CO2 that the aquatic environment. This means that there is a concentration gradient at the water/air interface. If you can get a really large area for gas exchange (like in a trickle filter) more CO2 will diffuse into the water, meaning that growth will be less CO2 limited. If you decreased turbulence at night that would allow the CO2 from plant respiration to build up, before photosynthesis re-started.
Buy a fogger, cheap from Argos or Maplin, at £14.
That would be a good idea, it may well be that a fogger would get around the humidity issue for the emersed section, meaning that you don't need a lid.

I had another thought about the emersed section and that was a "ebb and flow" or "flood and drain" system, like they use for hydroponics, where the bed is flooded twice an hour etc.

cheers Darrel
 
How big is the sump? If you run to much water through the system then evaporation will be considerable & this in turn will drop the water level in the sump pretty fast!
You can avoid this issue by dividing the flow from the sump pump so only a little goes through the overhead display tanks but more recirculates withing the sump via a trickle box filled with bio balls
 
I know the System you are talking about, and staff give them the most basic of care if that. I have seen what some of those sumps look like and they never get any maintenance on them, So of the Pre-filter Socks are black with Gunk.

Best thing you can do is try and add more Bio Filtration to the Sump Area And try and emphasize the need to clean the Filter Sock.

All the Advise you give will most likely fall on deaf ears. The Gravel Is never Cleaned and Mulm and Loose Leaves hardly ever get scooped out of the Cascade. I have seen how bad the Diatoms get after a week in some of these systems and the plants end up in a Bin on the Night before the Deliver comes in.


The Only Way in which the plants have a chance is if the stores hire Plant people who know what to do, But they Don't.
90% Give you a Blank stare when you say you want that plant, and then you have to point at it in the tank to tell them which one you want.



Does the System you are going to be Overhauling use the Plants sitting in the Gravel, or is it one of the "Plug" systems. Where there is a Sheet of Acrylic just above the gravel, with A Network of holes cut into it to create plugs for the pots to sit in. ??
 
dw1305 said:
Buy a fogger, cheap from Argos or Maplin, at £14.
That would be a good idea, it may well be that a fogger would get around the humidity issue for the emersed section, meaning that you don't need a lid.

I had another thought about the emersed section and that was a "ebb and flow" or "flood and drain" system, like they use for hydroponics, where the bed is flooded twice an hour etc.

cheers Darrel

The fogger is basically vaporated water, put it high enough and the plants will get wet from the top down. However, the best idea is a ebb and flow method, hard to better than one, and you would just need two pumps, or reuse the sump, and a timer.

For stems it is an issue, but you can leave them floating. So that they get enough moisture to prevent drying.
 
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