The science behind ADA additives

[plantbrain]

Penac, Tourmalne etc. What's the science behind it? Are there any tests to see how exactly they improve plant growth?

They all seem rather expensive to do a job that would ideally be covered by a good substrate, no?

There ain't no Science behind, it's quack, whack and hokey spiritual hobo mish mash and rubbish.

Critical thinking: use it. :idea:

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[plantbrain]

I guess the main issue here is the cost, that's why many guys could not test them at home. However only a minor ammount needed from each. Would be ideal from ADA to have a starter package for 45P, 60P, 90P, 120P tanks. As most of these additives has enough content for 10+ tanks.

For example: To test Penac additives on your 60P tank you only need 6gramms (3 spoon) of Penac not 200g as the product has. This also means that the volume you add to your tank just to play the ADA way is really a small investment. Unfortunatelly you can't get smaller amount, but you get the idea.

You state that they are needed and only in small amounts, please describe specifically what you mean by needed and what is provided specifically by these products.

I've challenge Amano on this stuff. He made a joke about them. Another group ask him, he stated that the marketing guys at ADA told him to sell the stuff, they are NOT needed.

This is from Amano himself.

I can find no factual support of any sort for plants or hydric soil research in any journal for any of these. Penac is a "known quack".

You'll have to do better than saying it and belief.

Homeopathic quackery products make billions $$ every year, I'd greatly prefer they not enter the aquarium market and will attack them with extreme prejudice. This is not personal, it's based on poor logic and often times outright crookedness and marketing scams, not products that offer any real help.

These are two good examples.

Send me your money instead, I'll tell you nice things.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[viktorlantos]

You state that they are needed and only in small amounts, please describe specifically what you mean by needed and what is provided specifically by these products.

I meant if anyone wants to follow the ADA way the requred amount based on their setup is only a few gramms from each stuff. So whoever wants to give it a try and can get a portion too it's not a big investment to make a personal test.

 

[plantbrain]

I'd like to think not, and that the vast majority of the UKAPS community are aware, through the highly constructive posts from the likes of Tom Barr, Clive, and your good-self, equivalent results can be achieved using non-ADA products combined with appropriate maintenance etc.

True.

The truth is we'll never know if the Penac powders etc. make any real difference without proper experiments.
I remain open-minded.

Here is where you took and right turn and should have kept going straight.
Open minded is fine, sounds nice and good an all..........they have done proper experiments with the Penac line in agriculture and in aquaculture.

It's quackery.
No self respecting researcher would believe their claims.

Now if they could show several researchers say in Aquatic Botany journal, that showed it does as claimed........then I'd happily eat my words.


I've seen this nit wit marketing and "well, we cannot really tell, maybe it works, I'll be open minded and buy it"
101 times in my 30 odd plus years in the hobby. I've NEVER once had to eat my words on this. I'm not a betting man, but I'd bet the home on this.

It's out right homeopathic crazy talk. I'll remain highly skeptical, extremely so...........till proven otherwise. Screw the open minded niceties. The burdern of proof is upon them when they talk this rubbish. Amano even states it's not needed and something his marketing guys told him to add and use.

He sells it, but at least he's honest about it.

I was very impressed when I used the entire ADA system a couple of years ago, but I will never know for certain if I would have achieved as impressive growth using other products.

So test it and see :idea: Then you'll have some degree of experience and will know. However, even if the tank does not do as good as the full line up, perhaps it was the CO2 or some other variable? Hard to say, so you cannot use that as a basis either. If the aquarium does better..........without the snake oil.........then what? Same thing.
You cannot really say.

the best way would to place plants in pots in the same tank with different media in each pot, then measure growth rates, leaf size/area and the root and shoot dry weights, N and P and total carbon in the tissues. This is something a hobbyist can do except for the N and P tissue, which is not that $$$ at a lab to have done.

Most ADA fan boys?
Do any testing and experimentation like this?
hahaha, hehehe..........nope, they do not care, they just want to scape.
Nothing wrong with that, but if you have a belief system rather than healthy large dose of skepticism and curiosity........critical thinking.........then you do not get to say much, all you can do is show off the nice tank and spend more $$$ to do it.

ADA's marketing team knows this and this is why they offer such additional items that offer little and prey upon belief and perceptions. I question my own belief and I question Amano's beliefs as well(Is Amano susceptible to belief?) When you put someone up beyond this, you enter into dangerous territory. I'm not comfy doing that, and if I piss off a legion of ADA fan boys/girls, then so be it. That does not scare me one bit. I can support my arguments and skepticism, question is......can ADA and can the fan boys/girls?

Not that I have ever seen to date, same with the Dupla fan boys/girls of 20 years ago.
Same tired rehashed weak minded arguments and personal poo pooing of the one questioning their Gods.
These same argument and approaches to the debate have never changed (This alone should tell you something).
And these same approaches are not confined to this hobby either, diet pills, alternative medicines, water filters, work out routines.........you name it.

 

[plantbrain]

You state that they are needed and only in small amounts, please describe specifically what you mean by needed and what is provided specifically by these products.

I meant if anyone wants to follow the ADA way the requred amount based on their setup is only a few gramms from each stuff. So whoever wants to give it a try and can get a portion too it's not a big investment to make a personal test.

That's fair then.

So how would you set up a test and if the results showed differences, what would that mean?
Either negative or positive or neutral ??

Methods are critical there.

 

[George Farmer]

I've challenge Amano on this stuff. He made a joke about them. Another group ask him, he stated that the marketing guys at ADA told him to sell the stuff, they are NOT needed.

This is from Amano himself.

Was this just the Penac?

 

[viktorlantos]

I've challenge Amano on this stuff. He made a joke about them. Another group ask him, he stated that the marketing guys at ADA told him to sell the stuff, they are NOT needed.
This is from Amano himself.

Well i do not think this would be the truth. I can imagine he answered this to you, but it was more of a conflict handling, friendly way to say so. Not sure in which situation you had this talk with him, but i've seen this question on other seminars too. Last time on Malaysia Seminar. So he just put this question on the side without going into any explanation with you

I think to smooth the edge of the "ADA system thing" he built something to his speach. That this stuff is not required, but using them gives a better result. This was from Mr. Amano too. Same for their PowerSand substrate under Amazonia.

To say that the marketing dep asked him to use is kind of a joke i guess. To show him like anyone else from us. Nothing more. He did this with one of his tool too on his speach. But they still using their tanks this way.

Anyway i am not defending anything here, it's just something which i woud not take serious even if Mr. Amano told this to you.

So how would you set up a test and if the results showed differences, what would that mean?
Either negative or positive or neutral ??

Good question, but i do not think i could test it simply. Only in different tanks or vases or so. So i would test it in fully separate environment. But since i am more connected to the art side of aquascaping and less on the science i just give it a try on any of my setup. FYI we used it on our tank before. The tank performing awesome, but as you said i would be too hard to tell if any of these things did this (or added to this) or we just found the perfect balance of that tank and plants.

To many variables everywhere. Just like with ferts, soils, light, filtrations etc. Use it, test it and you can decide if this add anything to your scapes or not. Or just skip it and live without them.

I still see too many folks going with the best substrates like Amazonia and they could not even keep a plant or have a tank without massive algae field. Of course for them a prof soil is a waste of money in this situation.

 

[Radik]

You state that they are needed and only in small amounts, please describe specifically what you mean by needed and what is provided specifically by these products.

I meant if anyone wants to follow the ADA way the requred amount based on their setup is only a few gramms from each stuff. So whoever wants to give it a try and can get a portion too it's not a big investment to make a personal test.

Why to bother when it is fake? All they do is pollute planet with useless crap with no benefit to anybody except them self.

 

[foxfish]

I do enjoy this type of debate - a bunch of experts talking about something I dont quite understand but makes compulsive reading .....

 

[GreenNeedle]

Well i do not think this would be the truth. I can imagine he answered this to you, but it was more of a conflict handling, friendly way to say so. Not sure in which situation you had this talk with him, but i've seen this question on other seminars too. Last time on Malaysia Seminar. So he just put this question on the side without going into any explanation with you

I think to smooth the edge of the "ADA system thing" he built something to his speach. That this stuff is not required, but using them gives a better result. This was from Mr. Amano too. Same for their PowerSand substrate under Amazonia.

To say that the marketing dep asked him to use is kind of a joke i guess. To show him like anyone else from us. Nothing more. He did this with one of his tool too on his speach. But they still using their tanks this way.

I wouldn't be so sure Viktor. POwersand is an old product before AS and rather than remove it once AS came along they marketed it as complimenatary to AS. Thats an old argument though.

Also Amano freely admits he uses low light and rather than ADA lights upsetting the highlight crowd they somehow reign the output in so that it is much lower than you would expect frm th ctua wattage This was shown in the tests at AFA a couple of years ago where the ADA MHs were giving half or less the PAR you would expect from other similr wattage MH. However it means th AD MH = less algae. People don't know its down to its inefficiency and still pay loads more for it.

So I think Amano could well have been serious r.e. his comments above. Much as Michael O Leary will laugh and joke about how poor his flights are and agree that all the add ons are a racket. This is face to face with cameras and on news bulletins. He doesn't worry about it and says at the end of the 'interview' that Ryanair passenger numbers aren't dropping

AC

 

[Morgan Freeman]

Critical thinking: use it. :idea:

Regards,
Tom Barr

Hence the thread

Anyway, if it was my company selling these, I'd test them myself and publish the results for all to see. I'm sure I'd have enough money to do so after selling £300 desk lamps

 

[Garuf]

... it gives fan boys the idea that because other people don't use such and such's products that the over all outcome must be inferior or that any issues are instantly down to your choice in magic powders, rather than more correctly aligning issues to poor husbandry.

Have you seen evidence of this on UKAPS, Gareth?

I'd like to think not, and that the vast majority of the UKAPS community are aware, through the highly constructive posts from the likes of Tom Barr, Clive, and your good-self, equivalent results can be achieved using non-ADA products combined with appropriate maintenance etc.

The truth is we'll never know if the Penac powders etc. make any real difference without proper experiments.

I remain open-minded.

I was very impressed when I used the entire ADA system a couple of years ago, but I will never know for certain if I would have achieved as impressive growth using other products.

No, George, I've not noticed it as vehemently as it is on other forums but it's definitely sneaking in, it got so bad on other forums that if you didn't have ada in the title then you wouldn't get any views at all let alone comments! It's definitely sneaking in now we have the full ada ranges on tap and I'd be extremely sad to see it go that way, not after the loss of James c recently and Maz Maslain.

I've heard all these tales of Amano being a salesman before he's a hobbyist, he told one of the russian judges he only makes his tanks available in book form because people will pay money for them, for example.

And, Tom, thank you for adding some much needed reasoning into this.

 

[plantbrain]

Honestly, I think Amano should be more concerned with diluting his Brand than to bother selling this rubbish, the small amount $ made is simply not worth tarnishing one's name with hokey marketing manure.

Sell the glass, sell the lights, the filter, the soil etc........but not all this stuff.

It does a disservice to everyone and the hobby.

If I made some juice in a bottle, but could not back it up, and claimed it helps over the long term subtly.........and there was no factual basis for it, or O warped some researcxh to suggest there was.....and with only trh power of belief and steer manure at my side..........could you use it and tell if it really worked or not for 19.99?

I mean it's only a little $$ for it and it might help, how can you be sure? Trust me, I take pretty pictures.
Would you buy it?

Then why would you buy this stuff???

I can easily make a product and give it some story.........some crazy talk........then sell it at a targeted range(curiously, these products are all right in the what the heck range of pricing.......even with all the supposed research claims and long effort that the claim suggest went into it........humm, all about 9.99 to 19.99.......).......and would anyone buy it?

Yes!
Why?
Belief alone.

I could even tell you it does not have any significant effects, and you'd still buy it? You bet!
It would just cost me my self respect.

Still, many would believe me, without ever confirming it and like a placebo.......I'd still get a few claiming it helped, even knowing that it's horse doo doo.

The same schpeil used to defend this rubbish can be used to market and defend "Tom's fresh pressed snake oil" in a bottle, intro pricing: 19.99 for 30mls, use daily 5 drops.

What is stopping me?

How would to test and see if it was BS or not? the same question applies to to Penac and Tourmaline.
Difference? I've already told you what I have is snake oil.

It might not be however, you should be open minded correct?

See? I'm appealing to your sense of fair play.

How's about this one: "There is much that Western Science does not yet know and understand, this revolutionary product from the shamans of Tibet have used for thousand's of years to cure imbalances in their fields can alos work miracles in aquariums and rid of algae and restore harmony to plant vitality."

See? I can play this manipulative game as well as any of them.
Difference? I still have my self respect and am not making $. Maybe your self respect can bought at a lower price?
Everyone has their price eh?

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[plantbrain]

I've heard all these tales of Amano being a salesman before he's a hobbyist, he told one of the russian judges he only makes his tanks available in book form because people will pay money for them, for example.

I've seen this is person, many clubs are a bit ticked off after having him come to their events........however, he does drawn many fan boys/girls to the events, so it's a love hate relationship.

Still, he is an artist, and I honestly do not expect him to simply give away the photos or the "art". This is how artist make their money, it's intellectual property :idea: He's like a holy man preaching redemption. A great artist and poor salesman will end up poor, and great salesman can sell anything to anyone. So I do not think this fairly applies to selling Penac/touramline.........but rather is how intellectual property is sold like photo's.

I'd say it's smart of his part, the Penac? Only makes his brand more questionable
We have to be careful and be specific when we have issues with things.
We cannot poo poo all ADA, just the things that we do not agree with based on rational thought.

Many seek ADA like options to have the aesthetic, but are too cheap to pay for it, or simply cannot get it in their area, and hence DIY etc.

So this can lead to testing the products.

Wading through what is bunk and what is not is not easy, many do not care and go with whatever everyone else says later. Some parrot the marketing.

I've strongly advocated proving things to yourself and asking and posing the rhetorical questions to and for yourself.
This way you have proven it yourself, you can speak more about it, have a greater understanding etc.

I have not suggest blind faith. I do not think I ever will.

 

[flyingfish]

I have a feeling sales in Penac and Tourmaline BC etc will be down in the UK after this.

 

[Ian Holdich]

I have a feeling sales in Penac and Tourmaline BC etc will be down in the UK after this.

noooooo, i'm off to order all of TGM stock right now!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Homeopathic quackery products make billions $$ every year, I'd greatly prefer they not enter the aquarium market and will attack them with extreme prejudice. This is not personal, it's based on poor logic and often times outright crookedness and marketing scams, not products that offer any real help.

I've got to agree with Tom, my personal opinion is that there probably are multifactorial vectors (dissolved O2, DOC, biofilm composition, redox potential in the substrate, possible allelopathic effects etc), that are difficult to quantify, that effect the stability of the aquarium. If you like it is a "faith position", but based upon my experience in Ecology.

Having said that there is a world of difference between an ecosystem approach and selling a variety of "magic bullets".
I am 100% with Tom, this is "homeopathic quackery", the only reason for buying these products is the same rationale as if you bought Jimmy Choo shoes or the latest Dior, it is a lifestyle statement, it doesn't have any basis in science.

cheers Darrel

 

[viktorlantos]

Just wondering if any of you tried these products in the past. Or just accepted the skeptical posts.

I've got feedback from many guys where Easy Carbo is not working, or EI ferts not brings those results. People who thinks that aeration is not needed in a planted tank etc...

Penac is the only stuff which produced by another company. And ADA selling this under the original brand (by plocher). As i see Mr. Amano used many German stuff in the past. Including glasses, tools (solingen), probably the filtration (by eheim). Penac fits to this picture as a German stuff which enrich the environment based on the company instruction. So i guess the idea came from here.

http://www.organicsa.co.za/Products/Pen ... water.html
http://www.plocher.de/englisch/index.php

I would be intrested to see any study too, but since these not exist i only see their tanks which looks and works great. Its not like Dupla Tom Even not Eheim, Tetra, Sera, JBL just to mention the large brands here. They are selling luxury products. And none of the previous mentioned brands fits into this field. Probably ELOS fits to this area only with their sortiment.

Maybe i am the only guy, but if fragrances CO would be acccessible in wide range on a normal price i would go with that?

I agree there are no studies on these additives, but would that add anything to the most?

Tom, Seachem does that. Is that matter? Last time one of our forum members did a great study on filtration materials. Matrix is exactly the same as Van Gerven. Which is a fraction of the cost on the market. So then what worth the study then? Bio Rio from ADA is also inspected and because of its various structure just by microscopical study this is a better filtration material and cheaper then Matrix. Its better in structure than most of the bio materials out there, because they are using different materials with different structures.

http://akvakertesz.hu/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1746
worth to check the full topic as he checked many bio and mech filtration media.

Beeing skeptical is ok. Use stuffs based on the study is ok too, but sometimes worth a try even if there are more negative feedback on an item.

Without beeing an ADA fan boy as Tom said

 

[viktorlantos]

No, George, I've not noticed it as vehemently as it is on other forums but it's definitely sneaking in, it got so bad on other forums that if you didn't have ada in the title then you wouldn't get any views at all let alone comments! It's definitely sneaking in now we have the full ada ranges on tap and I'd be extremely sad to see it go that way, not after the loss of James c recently and Maz Maslain.

I do not think this is true Garuf. Maybe those 3 letters catch your attention, but we know we've seen many poor tanks with great gears in the past. This does not matter if this is ADA or any other. If a tank is good, well served for the visitors this got more attention then others. That's all.

At the end the comment on my aquascape worth 100 times more than a comment on my gear. I hope i am not alone

 

[GreenNeedle]

I don't think it is as bad as Garuf is saying however I do notice that if someone does a scape in an ADA tank the title of the journal will include ADA 60P or whatever that tank is. I don't see many journals that have 'Fluval 125' or 'Juwel 125' in their title. There are some of course but with ADA ones it is ALWAYS part of the title.

Its a case of they want to show off and where most of us use a scape title ADA tank owners always make sure that everyone knows that the scape is in an ADA tank.

They do get more posts though. A little like some prestige added to the post just as a top scaper will get more posts on his/her threads than an unknown.

Much like a Ferrari owner leaving his car in the driveway rather than Garage so everybody can see it.

AC