EI dosing impact on fish breeding and Fry

[plantbrain]

I've had some folks long claim EI is bad for fish and bad for fish fry, bad for soft water fish, on and on........well time for them to eat some humble pie:

Most of the fry gets eaten by the rams, checker boards, cardinals, so I have to stand around and net them as they hatch, if........I'm around. I had poor results rearing fry in ultra pure water and in plain tap that was well aged prior to adding them in a quarantine tank(10 Gal bare bottomed with dual sponge filter, heater etc). I have those hospital net tank inserts, basically a hang on net. Fish fry would get caught/entangled and water changes made it a PITA, had a few squashed fish.

This simple tray float and exchange the water-3-4 times a day seems to work very well with plain old tank water, tank water has NO3 sitting about 30ppm or so, high PO4, about 5-6, and Fe at 1.0ppmm +, Gh about 3, KH 1.5, temp 82F.

Zero losses.

I would think and expect higher losses in this tray, where O2 and no filter are less, and where the higher ppm's would be detrimental. But...........

In both cases, I tried with tank water 100% to the new quarantine tank exchange, also plain tap, also DI/AC filtered, I only manged to get 7 fish to adulthood. Fungus and other issues, unexplained death. My question was mostly well, maybe it is the higher NO3 and fry's exposure is much more sensitive?

Could have been, until I started doing this method using the tank water and exchanges. If I'd not had this result, I might be tempted and feel strongly otherwise.

Such unexpected results are often the case. Without some evidence otherwise, we are left to our own devices and assumptions. Now..if someone else came along and challenged me to try it and see, I'd have nothing to lose, I was losing fry anyhow and the fish breed like clock work every 2 weeks.

Since I'm using nothing but tank water, it cannot be due to the N, P, Fe etc.............nor low O2 etc.

I cannot say with any certainly what was killing the fry prior, only what was NOT killing them/leading to mortality etc. We often seek answers, when we should seek the questions. This is 3rd x I've had this same result.
Once the fish get to about 1" or more, they are tough as nails. This takes about 8 weeks.
They have been breeding for the last 6 months, so I've had plenty of time to try a variety of things with the fry.
No rush here. They will breed again in 2 weeks like clock work.

So this, along with Discus, Apistos, Angels(sorry, not altums), cories, shrimps(SS/SSS CRS/RCS/Fires, Amanos) are added to the list of fish I have bred with higher nutrients.

We know we can now answer "are higher nutrients have an adverse effect/s on fish, algae and plants? We can say "no, not in any general way". Thus the risk is minimal.

So for those that wish to claim nutrients are detrimental, where is your evidence? Like the example I stated above, if you have no tried to falsify your own hypothesis, then you'd never know.
Here's my evidence and it's going to be exceeding difficult to falsify the results.

 

[Tsigania]

Greetings from Buenos Aires Tom, I just wanted to state that fishes from both my planted tanks started spawning after starting using EI. Serpaes and Cherry Barbs were spawning twice a week on a regular basis. Perhaps because the plants are producing more oxigen? Cheers, Javier.

 

[roadmaster]

I find it odd that tank water in tray works, but tank water in fry tank (quarantine) doesn't.
Could you not drill tiny holes in bottom of tray too small for fish to escape/fall through, but allow tank water in and then hang the tray over the tank?
This might allow water perhaps higher in oxygen near the surface, into the tray and three to four daily water exchanges might not be needed depending on types of food offered (could clog tiny holes).
I did something similar while raising cory's. They seemed to appreciate shallower water during first few weeks, and had less losses than when kept in deeper fry tank where they perhaps struggled to dart to the surface as needed.
Maybe not yet fully developed internal organ's I don't know, just know they did much better in same water but shallower.
I use a scaled back version of EI dosing in planted Non CO2 tank, and fishes are always laying eggs which are quickly eaten by other's. Fishes try to eat the dry fertz when I'm too lazy to mix them with water.
I use daily suggested dose of NPK for 60 to 80 gal tank once a week, or every two weeks, and have seen plenty of spawning activity but as mentioned,,the eggs seldom last long.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I think this is a stability issue, I've also found the same that "sensitive fish" to much better in a fry trap in the main tank, than they do in a separate rearing tank, even if you are very good with the water changes etc.. I've got a special trap for Loricariids (http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=410) that does allow for the continual exchange of tank water, but I've successfully used a tray similar to Tom's for other fish.

Gh about 3, KH 1.5,

So pretty soft water, even if nutrient rich. I think that the higher water quality associated with actively growing plants is always going to out-weigh all the other factors. If you asked me what is the single most important factor in keeping and breeding any fish I would nearly always tell you that it is actively growing plants.

Once the fish get to about 1" or more, they are tough as nails. This takes about 8 weeks.

I'm pretty sure that this is a food issue, have a look here: <http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworld/shanesworld.php?article_id=412> this was written by Larry Waybright ("Apistomaster") from the USA, I've corresponded with him for a long time and he is usually pretty spot on.

cheers Darrel

 

[nry]

All this talk of tank water specifications...is there a decent reference on natural levels of what we dump in through the EI process? How do, for example, the 'EI' nutrient levels in an oto's natural environment compare with those in an EI tank?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
We do have parameters for some rivers etc. I've got a book - "South American Dwarf Cichlids", Mayland and Bork, Verlag 1997, which has water parameters for quite a few rivers from which they collected fish, the answer is that in most cases the water was pretty well pure H2O, this ranged from the lower Rio Negro that was almost devoid of any detectable ions (cond. 11 microS) to the Rio Paraguay that was at about 40 microS, 1dKH and 3ppm NO3.

This would some where in the middle of the range of water values:

Rio Tapajos, at Santarem:
Temp 28oC.
pH 6.49
Cond. 22 microS.
Hardness dKH 0.48
Ca 1.68ppm
Mg 0.57ppm
Na 1ppm
K 1ppm
NO3 0.6 ppm
P <0.04 ppm

cheers Darrel

 

[plantbrain]

Greetings from Buenos Aires Tom, I just wanted to state that fishes from both my planted tanks started spawning after starting using EI. Serpaes and Cherry Barbs were spawning twice a week on a regular basis. Perhaps because the plants are producing more oxigen? Cheers, Javier.

Could be, or simply more salts increasing the TDS. Hard to say what is causing something, it is....much much easier to say what something is NOT doing

 

[plantbrain]

I find it odd that tank water in tray works, but tank water in fry tank (quarantine) doesn't.
Could you not drill tiny holes in bottom of tray too small for fish to escape/fall through, but allow tank water in and then hang the tray over the tank?
This might allow water perhaps higher in oxygen near the surface, into the tray and three to four daily water exchanges might not be needed depending on types of food offered (could clog tiny holes).
I did something similar while raising cory's. They seemed to appreciate shallower water during first few weeks, and had less losses than when kept in deeper fry tank where they perhaps struggled to dart to the surface as needed.
Maybe not yet fully developed internal organ's I don't know, just know they did much better in same water but shallower.
I use a scaled back version of EI dosing in planted Non CO2 tank, and fishes are always laying eggs which are quickly eaten by other's. Fishes try to eat the dry fertz when I'm too lazy to mix them with water.
I use daily suggested dose of NPK for 60 to 80 gal tank once a week, or every two weeks, and have seen plenty of spawning activity but as mentioned,,the eggs seldom last long.

I did as well. The methods are the same however for catching, the fry food, etc.
The water is exchanged more often, but volume is 10-20X less than the 10 gal.
I typically did 2x a week 50% water change in the Quarantine tank with Tank water.

I also tried pourified tap and then plain tap, nothing worked, I bombed the Quarantine tank and sterilized it 3x to make sure some other bug/bacteria or fungus was not attacking them, but why not in the main tank? Seemed weird, I do not practice sterile technique either, so what's in 1 tank, should for the most part, be in each of the tanks, I do maintain very clean conditions in each tank, buit paid extra attention to the Q tanks.

This was borne more out of being pissed off at the fry losses.
I have a spawn every 2 weeks. So at least I can try many many different methods.

I have not gotten around the putting holes in the tray yet , I'm lazy.

 

[plantbrain]

Hi all,
I think this is a stability issue, I've also found the same that "sensitive fish" to much better in a fry trap in the main tank, than they do in a separate rearing tank, even if you are very good with the water changes etc.. I've got a special trap for Loricariids (http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=410) that does allow for the continual exchange of tank water, but I've successfully used a tray similar to Tom's for other fish.

Gh about 3, KH 1.5,

So pretty soft water, even if nutrient rich. I think that the higher water quality associated with actively growing plants is always going to out-weigh all the other factors. If you asked me what is the single most important factor in keeping and breeding any fish I would nearly always tell you that it is actively growing plants.

Once the fish get to about 1" or more, they are tough as nails. This takes about 8 weeks.

I'm pretty sure that this is a food issue, have a look here: <http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworld/shanesworld.php?article_id=412> this was written by Larry Waybright ("Apistomaster") from the USA, I've corresponded with him for a long time and he is usually pretty spot on.

cheers Darrel

The TDS sits about 350ppm even with the soft water.

I spent a lot of effort messing with the Q tanks in the garage, I've raised a lot of fry over the last few decades, it's something I've done a fair amount of.......but........still had issues. Hard to say what it is, success and then going back and seeing what I know I'm doing is still good info nonetheless.

Get some good info that way.

If it was the plants alone.........then exchanging the water would do the trick, but I did it 2x a week with 50% tank water to the Q tank, could not keep one of them. I do it more frequently with the tray method........but the water sits for 8-12 hours, so the plant exudates still have time to sit, break down etc.

Activated carbon would remove these plant exudates, and provide a good control for testing.
I could also remove the parents and see if they spawn in the Q tank.

I'll be removing a pair I have a client's tank in 3 weeks, so I will have the chance to see.

Most breeders feel barebottom tanks, clean etc.......are best for max brood production and prevention of losses, this is counter to that. These fish and fry provide some interesting questions and observations.

As far as the food issue............the fry and in BOTH cases are feed the same things, and the epiphytes are potentially an issue for younger fry. I'm not sure I can say much except about the food, the epiphtyic communities that these fry gnaw upon are likely different and that may play a role.

Lots of stuff I have no clue on, only a few things I can say what they are not.

 

[plantbrain]

All this talk of tank water specifications...is there a decent reference on natural levels of what we dump in through the EI process? How do, for example, the 'EI' nutrient levels in an oto's natural environment compare with those in an EI tank?

You can plug and chug using a dosing calculator modeling program:

http://ei.petalphile.com/

Dosing Cal:
http://calc.petalphile.com/

 

[plantbrain]

Figured out what was killing the fry prior to this method........fungus.
I took some of the Fry and added them to the Q tank to see if the same thing woud occur(Another control). I noticed 1-2 had fungus. Added anti fungal meds and the lost and disease seem to have stopped.

I'll wait and see a bit and update as needed.

I still kept a few in a tray in the tank itself etc.

 

[hard determinist]

So for those that wish to claim nutrients are detrimental, where is your evidence?

My evidence are scientific papers which I trust more than to subjective observations in uncontrolled environment (although these may be helpful also). Moreover your observations are based just on what you see, ignoring what may be hidden to your eyes (inner defects, less weight, shorter lifespan, less eggs, etc.). You should compare your subjective results with some control tank to see if there are really no differences. But this would be probably extremely hard doing at home. So I must say that your "evidences" are not any real proof for me. Or don't you know that in many China cities with extremely high air polution (PM2.5 reaching sometimes more than 700 AQI which is nearly 30-times higher than the safe level) that is labeled as hazardous the people there are normally having children, and these children are playing outside? But if you compare the statistics you have unchallenged proof of the negative effect of this air pollution to human health (respiratory deseases, shorter lifespan, proneness to get sick, etc.). The same may apply to our fish also under elevated levels of nutrient pollution. And if this is already proven in other areas, we can suppose it applies to fish also. So where is your evidence now?

 

[roadmaster]

There will most certainly be a difference in TDS in tank's that have larger nutrient content than those with less %.
Increased TDS can hinder reproduction of some,not all species of tropical's.
As for inner defect's you mention,less weight,shorter life span's,less egg's, these can also be attributed to in breeding,poor diet's,water chemistry unsuited for species being kept with respect to GH.KH. Temp's.
We may not see the immediate effect's of these either, but many have noted as much long before Estimative index was created.
Can alway's run planted tanks with less light energy and thereby less nutrient's are needed.