Yanks, We suck.........

[plantbrain]

I have been having a conversation about the sad state of aquascaping in the USA.

This relates to the Art aspect, not the healthy plants, etc.........it seems many are more interested in other things than really pursuing the art or novel styles.

Is there a similar feeling in the UK? Many are relatively new there, but in the USA, many have been around keeping plants for a decade and still suck.

With this in mind, I've been looking at the articles and information available for scaping...........it is there, but folks would rather haggle over NO3 vs NH4........or how to kill X algae, or buy/sell/acquire X species..........than put much real effort into scaping. ADA AJ's have a lot of information, I think Amano really has spent a lot of energy and time trying his best to educate folks in this regard. But many squabble over Penac and miss the real message I think. It is easy to attack quackery and not face the reality of the where many of us need to focus more on.

Maybe I have spent enough time on ferts, light and CO2 and am ready to really attack some other area........maybe many feel this way. This is horticulture and art mind you, not plant physiology or ecology, I do not mix these two areas up, they are linked, but are very distinct from one another.

Good high grade hard scape material is one of the main differences also from many top scapes vs what we often find in the USA, and perhaps...the UK. The Dutch simply used plants and spent less time playing with hardscape materials as a rule.

 

[Tom]

I think before you can do well with scaping, you need to be able to keep plants healthy. This is something that wasn't a problem for me when I first started, but recently for some reason has been an absolute nightmare! It kills your confidence and creativity, and you get stuck and focused on just making things work. The more I find out, the more confused I get. Then I look at Amanos tank stats and wonder how on earth things are still alive. Low budgets don't help with experimentation and learning.

With a lot of people though, they seem to either have the design skill or the plant-growing skill. There are few who seem to have both nailed.

As for scaping materials, it's all very well buying over the internet, and we do have sources of some good stuff. It's just that you don't know what you will end up with. If you can go to The Green Machine you can spend hours trawling through many different hardscape materials to find a piece that is perfect. There need to be more shops like that, in more accessible locations. I know North Wales is difficult for many to get to. Myself included. I've done the 10-12 hour round trip several times. We need something in London or East really. AquaJardin was good last time I went too, but again there is nothing over this way.

Tom

 

[viktorlantos]

I think that's the beauty and the bad side of the hobby too. The hobby involve many kind of people. We can agreed on that they mainly get involved by the beauty scapes. But then scientist interested about different part just like DIY kind of people who enjoy much more the self building process of a cabinet, lamp etc then building up the theme/landscape in the tank. There are guys who are more intrested about ferts, or just plants or get lost in the low-tech/high-tech world.

Only a smaller portion are intrested about the thing what they catched by originally. A beautiful and various aquascaping style which mostly looks natural and balanced to the eye.

It's not USA i also feels this in our local communities.
Maybe the people are more worried about the supportive things then the aquarium and the scape itself. If you look out for some Asian community board, they have more talk about scaping and less about mixing ferts and biology etc.

I have to add that without these mixed knowledge guys the hobby would not improove that much since we all put a lot of brainpower in it to have better result.

But still people who has eyes for a beauty or they are using this capability in their job do better. For example a photographer, designer, artist, camera man, stylist etc where you have to use the same kind of capability and ratios on a daily basis will put more attention to their aquascaping.

I have to add there are some great talent in the USA (Jason Baliban, Senske brothers etc), but compare to the number of people this part of the hobby (art side) is not doing well.

What i do love in Amano's publication is the nature connection. And how nature is replicated sometimes how he teach to do more natural things. The product you can use does not matter. They offer a working solution with their product range, but you can use whatever product you want. So if we stick with one or the other products and try to bash it i think we did not get the whole message.

 

[clonitza]

There are a couple of things to take into consideration:

- There are people who do aquascaping but are not really into online comunication so you won't find them or their work on the web whatsoever, if you are not online this doesn't mean you don't exist.
- You don't really need "high grade" hard scape material or that expensive rare plant to do a good/winning aquascape but you do need a solid background, some talent, a sense of aestetics and art. Think outside the box/"matrix"/styles and play with your plants.
- People do have real issues related to algae & plant growth, for some this might be intimidating at first and the weak ones give up very fast. The thing that makes it worse is that you have to dig really deep to find a good article not to mention a book that can help you and your "crusade", 99% of the web is full of crap and square minded people.

[...] to be continued ...

 

[plantbrain]

I have to add there are some great talent in the USA (Jason Baliban, Senske brothers etc), but compare to the number of people this part of the hobby (art side) is not doing well.

What i do love in Amano's publication is the nature connection. And how nature is replicated sometimes how he teach to do more natural things. The product you can use does not matter. They offer a working solution with their product range, but you can use whatever product you want. So if we stick with one or the other products and try to bash it i think we did not get the whole message.

But these folks have not even made the top 100 in the ADA contest........George and Steve Lo made it to #20.

I read the AJ today, most of the journal was about how to set up and maintain the scape, there where a few example,s wood and rock, aesthetic sand etc..............in fact, that was most of the journal. Amano is really trying to teach people, but few seem to listen to this message in the USA.

I have to wonder if it's not a cultural issue here.

 

[Mark Evans]

I have to wonder if it's not a cultural issue here.

It is the world over.

For me personally, i learn with my eyes, not words. This is why when people bleat on about AJ's being in Japanese, i always suggest to look at the pictures for an insight into layout and composition.

I'm by no means a great scaper, but after about 5 years, i feel confident now, and am excited about my next 5 years.and all from using my eyes their great things when it comes to 'Art'

 

[JEK]

For me the scaping-part is actually the easiest part, but keeping the tank healthy and algae-free is really hard for me.

I Denmark and Sweden are people generally most interested in collecting plants and making cheap DIY solutions, so I guess that's not so different from USA.

 

[viktorlantos]

But these folks have not even made the top 100 in the ADA contest........George and Steve Lo made it to #20.

Tom, i think you're on the wrong way. For me Art / Eye / Balance is not about contest ranking.
Contest is a great way to empower the community to produce better and do more various layout, but we've seen that many times the result may not be right.

So i would not mix the contest result with a talent of an aquascaper.
Of course there are icons who are there in the top 5-20-50 many times. But i see very professional scapes even above 100 or 200 at IAPLC.

A great work will be something you will remember for a long time.

But one thing i see. If somebody interested about the scape side/the art side of the thing, will perform better after a time. As this part too is something what most of us can learn.

We may be not that good as the worlds best, but we can do better from year to year, learning from the technics and the faults, success.

For example the current IAPLC winner got very useful hints and advices from the icons (Cliff Hui etc), and he used these things to do better and actually win the IAPLC this year.

 

[andy-mu]

Like all art in general. It is a very subjective topic. What some people like, others do not.
Certain layouts appeal to different people. Some choose Iwagumi, others Jungle. Each has there
own idea of what looks good.

I agree with Viktor that good design concepts help alot in layout. The various ratios to use in helping
you. Many of these are not just some hair brained ideas. They teach you the art/eye/balance thing
Viktor refers to. Our brains interpret what we see when presented in a strong dynamic balanced
way. Thats what makes winning scapes. But many low ranking scapes for me can look absolutely outstanding.
It obviously appeals to my eye in perhaps a style I like.

I've not made the stunning scapes yet. I have a lot to learn. But learn I will, and as a resource UKAPS is
a fantastic medium. The knowledge base here will help me a long the way and already has. I'll make what
for me is a well thought out design that is visually balanced, but already I know I would have done things different with equipment. Since for me, like many others apparent lack of it is very appealing aesthetically. Who can beat what looks like a fish populated planted river bed and no apparent equipment making it function.

 

[GreenNeedle]

I agree with Viktor. A contest does not mean Art.

I just wrote not 10 minutes ago on ASW about how if these competitions are Art then they should remove the judging criteria and judge the scape as a whole.

Meaning there could be one scape that everyone agrees is far above the rest however when they have to mark 1 criteria of maximum X points and another criteria of maximum Y points it changes things.

If there are for example 10 separate judging criteria then even if a scape is considered' the best it may not even reach the Top 100 if 3 of the criteria are not met. That is more like an exam.

On the US thing. Maybe it is similar to the UK. Maybe the US folks like us think time is so important. That they do not have time to do anything. We are so impatient and therefore many people fall at the first hurdle when they cannot beat the algae or cannot get things right in 10 minutes.

Its quite strange really. On ASW I see quite a lot of UK people joining but for the size of the US I don't see many US people joining.

One good thing though is that in the US where reef is more dominant than anywhere else in the world (from what I see) many are starting to refer to tropical planted aqusacaping in relation to the layout of their reef tanks. That can only result in many more US reefers picking up an interest maybe in planted scaping. Even if it means they are small side projects or even if it is purely to learn things to implement in their reefs.

By this I mean they are not talking about plants. Just the aquascaping. So maybe that will be a bonus over the next few years for you.

Something for you to sneak into your reef posts Tom Bring them in from the 'pink/blue' side into the world of greens

Andy

 

[plantbrain]

For me the scaping-part is actually the easiest part, but keeping the tank healthy and algae-free is really hard for me.

I Denmark and Sweden are people generally most interested in collecting plants and making cheap DIY solutions, so I guess that's not so different from USA.

Reef folks in the USA will spend lots and lots, but in general, planted tank people here are VERY cheap.
But...........a good scaper need not be someone who spends a lot of $. I've seen some real nice stuff DIY and low budget.

 

[plantbrain]

But these folks have not even made the top 100 in the ADA contest........George and Steve Lo made it to #20.

Tom, i think you're on the wrong way. For me Art / Eye / Balance is not about contest ranking.
Contest is a great way to empower the community to produce better and do more various layout, but we've seen that many times the result may not be right.

Yes, I agree.
Still, I've seen these folks above, scape over the years( a decade for Jeff and Mike Senske). Steve, and George in particular, seem to think more and take a longer time in the process before setting it up.

So i would not mix the contest result with a talent of an aquascaper.
Of course there are icons who are there in the top 5-20-50 many times. But i see very professional scapes even above 100 or 200 at IAPLC.

Well, the contest is not a reflection of the scapers goal, which often has little to do with winning the contest.
I've never entered any contest for this very reason, it's not my goal.

A great work will be something you will remember for a long time.
But one thing i see. If somebody interested about the scape side/the art side of the thing, will perform better after a time. As this part too is something what most of us can learn. We may be not that good as the worlds best, but we can do better from year to year, learning from the technics and the faults, success. For example the current IAPLC winner got very useful hints and advices from the icons (Cliff Hui etc), and he used these things to do better and actually win the IAPLC this year.

Yes, I do believe strongly in practicing and life long learning. I am much more musical in the area of art, but even this and any area can be learned I feel.

So how might you suggets people learn this better than the AJ articles?

My ultimate goal is to have folks achieve their own goals with scaping, and this requires them to be able to manage and do horticulture without too much pain and suffering.

I am thinking about an English langauge version of a scaping book. Something that brings together many different styles and elements, people etc.

 

[plantbrain]

I agree with Viktor. A contest does not mean Art.

I just wrote not 10 minutes ago on ASW about how if these competitions are Art then they should remove the judging criteria and judge the scape as a whole.

Meaning there could be one scape that everyone agrees is far above the rest however when they have to mark 1 criteria of maximum X points and another criteria of maximum Y points it changes things.

If there are for example 10 separate judging criteria then even if a scape is considered' the best it may not even reach the Top 100 if 3 of the criteria are not met. That is more like an exam.

On the US thing. Maybe it is similar to the UK. Maybe the US folks like us think time is so important. That they do not have time to do anything. We are so impatient and therefore many people fall at the first hurdle when they cannot beat the algae or cannot get things right in 10 minutes.

Its quite strange really. On ASW I see quite a lot of UK people joining but for the size of the US I don't see many US people joining.

One good thing though is that in the US where reef is more dominant than anywhere else in the world (from what I see) many are starting to refer to tropical planted aqusacaping in relation to the layout of their reef tanks. That can only result in many more US reefers picking up an interest maybe in planted scaping. Even if it means they are small side projects or even if it is purely to learn things to implement in their reefs.

By this I mean they are not talking about plants. Just the aquascaping. So maybe that will be a bonus over the next few years for you.

Something for you to sneak into your reef posts Tom Bring them in from the 'pink/blue' side into the world of greens

Andy

I do agree with judging them as true art forms, not based on aquarium criteria.
However, there is a counter to that as well, should we judge those for scapes or for their aquarist' skills?
What makes a winning aquarist?

Planted tanks in the USA are simply a low priority overall for the Fish Hobby here.
Reefs and breeding fish are more popular.

Yes, Reef folks here are far far more insane, willing to spend whatever it takes........I grow aquatic plants, which means Macro algae and seagrasses. I think you are aware of this.

My seagrass is actually a rare threaten species unfortunately in some respects. Halophila jonhensoii. Wonderful plant. Tidepools are another area, cold water marine tide pools are simply awesome.

These will not be that popular, but slowly folks can change things in the public's perception and knowledge base. Amano did this for the planted tank approaches, as did Dupla and the Dutch before them. I would like to see and think about the larger picture, how to popularize the hobby and highlight the gardening aspects more, and be able to have folks have a reference to go to to learn more about it.

I am going to write a book on aquatic plant horticulture in about 1 year after the Dissertation is done with a taxonomist from Oz, I think I will include a good sized section of scaping and art, how to trim and some examples.

I had not intended for that part......but I think it would be bad to NOT include it.

 

[clonitza]

IMHO keeping planted tanks is fairly easy unfortunately some people make it hard for newcomers.
The hard part is aquascaping for contests 'cause you have to stick on the "rules".

After three years of keeping planted aquariums I can write a 2-3 page leaflet to cover all you need to keep a stunning one, no need for more, on the other hand a book about trimming, planting, arranging hardscape tips & tricks will be much more useful, but who's gonna write it? Amano again?

Mike

 

[GreenNeedle]

Maybe a 'planted tanks/aquascaping for dummies' style book and a seperate one as Vol2 which moves on a little more advanced.

After all people are more likely to buy the larger book thinking it's better even if the leaflet does have all you need to know Just looks more credible even if most of it is just the same as the leaflet but elaborating pointlessly.

Thats what most of these books are really. Loads of waffle to fill pages when 1 sentence could've explained what they use a whole page for

Andy

 

[clonitza]

True mate, lots of pictures and some brilliant quotes like Amano does in its books, no need to bore us to death, I recall the time I put my hands on Diana's book, don't think I'll go that route very soon, though it was a nice read.
I'm still scared opening Pearson's Chemistry and Biology courses sitting on my desk.
Not sure Tom can manage compressing his thoughts into small quotes, we'd better cut his fingers.

 

[plantbrain]

IMHO keeping planted tanks is fairly easy unfortunately some people make it hard for newcomers.
The hard part is aquascaping for contests 'cause you have to stick on the "rules".

After three years of keeping planted aquariums I can write a 2-3 page leaflet to cover all you need to keep a stunning one, no need for more, on the other hand a book about trimming, planting, arranging hardscape tips & tricks will be much more useful, but who's gonna write it? Amano again?

Mike

Yes, that is part of the issue.

But how do we overcome this?

I do not wish to have only my views added to this and to th art, I'd rather see a comparative work, that is much more the goal, the basics, I think........as far as trim etc.........ADA covers most of it, but as far as the art, we need many folks, not just Amano. He knows this himself.

 

[plantbrain]

True mate, lots of pictures and some brilliant quotes like Amano does in its books, no need to bore us to death, I recall the time I put my hands on Diana's book, don't think I'll go that route very soon, though it was a nice read.
I'm still scared opening Pearson's Chemistry and Biology courses sitting on my desk.
Not sure Tom can manage compressing his thoughts into small quotes, we'd better cut his fingers.

I can be painfully brief.

I think SC's idea of a 2 volume text is good. One more slated for the common folks and then advanced more for those that have the green thumb already.

I will not self publish however, I intend to have a publishing company do this and really get the books out to the most people in the market. I do not care about the $, I care about the information spread.

There is not a single aquascaping book available in any LFS around here. ADA is about it.

 

[JEK]

For me the scaping-part is actually the easiest part, but keeping the tank healthy and algae-free is really hard for me.

I Denmark and Sweden are people generally most interested in collecting plants and making cheap DIY solutions, so I guess that's not so different from USA.

Reef folks in the USA will spend lots and lots, but in general, planted tank people here are VERY cheap.
But...........a good scaper need not be someone who spends a lot of $. I've seen some real nice stuff DIY and low budget.

I agree, nothing wrong with DIY, but sometimes it feels likes the focus here is more on cheap solutions than actual aqauscaping...

 

[viktorlantos]

Well you may know that Mr. Amano has a specific time when he send out his team to the nature. Shoothing photos etc. So if this is scaping i really would include the nature side a bit more. How a stone looks like embedded in a hill with supportive plants. Why that looks natural as multiple species mixing in an area etc. How a riverbed looks like and what we can do to mimic that in our tanks. Why a forest is different from all (ferns, mosses etc. more shady plants).

Many guys just take the fresh seiryu, manzanita wood etc and thinks that the scape will be natural from that point. Then a badly rotated stone or an unnatural position to the wood and the scape will not look natural whatever they do.
It's not enough to have good decors or healthy plants all the stuff need to work well together. They need to use a bit of their imagination and think outside of the box. The soil have too look natural too. Slopes etc. How to keep that in position.

If they learn the basics of this. Then the next steps could follow. Build a more complicated layout.
And i would keep the bests only for the last chapters what an additional creativity can do with the same plants and decors etc.

So arty book is good, but people will learn and will use this book only if the targets goals are reachable. This is not art yet. Most of this part is the basics, and the nature inspiration. So do not force people about art. Tell the story how to do scaping. How to learn more from the nature. How to run this stuff successfully.

You also can pick a professional tank and take that apart. Tell it how they built up the tank. What plants they used. Why it is good or not or if this is a long term tank or just built to the contest. Tell your concerns.

There are so many things to tell outside of the ADA articles too.