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New tank woes.

Eldritch12

Seedling
Joined
22 Jan 2012
Messages
6
Greetings! I'm very new to this forum and also to the hobby, I was so inspired by how beautiful the scapes on here are that I have decided to learn all there is about it and try one myself.

I've already made a few mistakes, possibly big ones and was hoping for some input on anything that I should fix, so that I can stop panicking. I have tried my best to do as much research as possible but there's so much info out there it's often confusing, anyhow here's my setup.

26 gallon Juwel tank.

1/2 inch of Fluval stratum substrate as base layer with a further 2 inches of silica sand and gravel on top.

Hagen glo 2x24watt HO unit with 1x Sylvania Grolux and 1x Phillip HO skywhite.

Internal U2 filter and E range heater.

DIY co2 unit rigged to a small powerhead for a steady stream of micro bubbles.

plants:

Hemianthus callitrichoides "Cuba"
Christmas Moss
Pogostomons Stellata
1xJava fern.


As expected with a new cycle there's been a large bloom of brown algae and unfortunately it's killing off the HC (or the HC was dieing anyway) I did plant it in clumps rather than individual stems so that might be it. The moss isn't looking too healthy either. They've only been in a few days but I'm starting to think there isn't enough light. (I originally thought 48watts was loads, but now I'm not so sure). I'm dosing with Nutrafin plantgro whilst waiting for some Tropica + to arrive.
The Pogostomens is one I really love the look of, it arrived the other day at stem cuttings which I planted, it's still looking healthy, however I'm afraid it won't stand a chance if it requires higher light than I have, especially with the diatoms everywhere.
Any suggestions about the setup, is it too early to start planting some of these types of plants? I think I was using the logic that the plants would out compete the algae, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

All advice is most welcome, I'd hate to be killing off stuff through ignorance.

Cheers!
Dave
 
Eldritch12 said:
...I'm starting to think there isn't enough light...
Hello,
Of all possible things to think, this has to be the worst and leads only to more destruction. In fact this is the biggest mistake you can possible make regarding plants.

If i were you, I would immediately disable one of the bulbs and find a way to increase the CO2 and flow to the substrate. HC, moss and P. Stelleta do not really care about how much light you have. They care about how much CO2 and flow you have. The diatom algae loves light, so you are just encouraging it to grow and to take over your tank. Your internal filter is also probably too weak. You can supplement the CO2/flow issues by adding liquid carbon, however, long term you will need to find better ways to raise both the CO2 concentration levels and the flow strength.

Additionally it is a major flaw to think that plants can ever out compete algae. This is like thinking that giraffes can out compete cockroaches. It will never happen as clearly demonstrated in your tank, right?

Cheers,
 
how long has your tank been set up? i had a problem with brown diatom algae when i first set up my tank but after a few weeks it started to die off to be replaced by other forms of algae.
 
When I first brought my tank I had no intentions of growing plants. I was more obsessed with buying every fish available for my community. I was going to buy a few plastic plants, get an air pump to create a "bubble curtain" and searched high and low for the right crappy piece of plastic bog wood!! I started having algae issues so I searched for answers. That`s when I found UKAPs. :thumbup:

Like you I was blown away by some of the beautiful scapes on here, and on other forums. So I decided that I wanted to achieve something like that. I found a LFS locally that stocked a great selection of Tropica plants. I brought whatever looked nice and started on my adventure. Most plants melted away, so I brought more. Most of those failed also. I then started having terrible algae issues (BBA, BGA, GSA, Thread, Cynobacteria) you name it I had? Undettered I plodded on, researching more and more. Eventually I beat the algae, but only when I had lived with it, and experienced what it took to keep it under control. It`s taken me a good 16mths of trial and error to finally understand the requirments of maintaining a good stable enviroment for growing plants.

From my "short" experience the two main factors to consider are good consistant Co2 levels, and adequate flow to all areas of your tank.

Don`t beat yourself up if your plants fail first time round. You need to experience the bad times to reap the rewards in the long run. Attempting Stellata, and HC at the first attempt is optimistic at best. I hope you can save them as I have Stellata doing well at the min and it`s a lovely plant!

Look at sorting that filter, invest in a good external. Aim for turnover 10X your tanks volume, and increase your Co2 Pressurised if budget will allow. Once you have perfected the art of Co2 distrubution you will be 20% there? :lol:
Good luck :thumbup:
 
easerthegeezer said:
... if i understand right...
diatom algae feeds on silicate which it depletes very quickly,.
No this is not really true. For example Hair algae feeds on CO2 but adding more CO2 makes it go away. GSA feeds on CO2 and PO4 but adding more CO2 & PO4 makes this algae go away. Nutrients do not trigger algal blooms. It is not necessarily what is in the tank that causes a bloom but instead how the plants respond to the environmental conditions.

If what you say was true then adding silicates to the tank would always trigger a diatom bloom. Silicates do not get used up but are present all the time. Consider those hobbyists using diatomaceous clay (made from the bodies of diatoms) as substrate, such as in some kitty litter products, or really, any clay which are composed of silica. What about hobbyists using silicate containing tap water for their weekly water changes? Are there any more instances of diatoms blooms in these tanks versus others? Not really. The unstable biological conditions in your tank at startup triggers this bloom and is exacerbated by high light. Having good flow, good CO2 and reduced lighting prevents diatom blooms or significantly reduces the amount of time the bloom lasts.

Cheers,
 
Just out of interest ceg, your statement that brown diatoms require high light? Is that based on a planted tank environment or any tank set up?
 
Thanks for the feedback I did as you instructed and disabled one light, after a water change and a general tidy up I'm just waiting to see what happens next. It's only been 24 hours, but there seems to be no new growth in algae, so hopefully it's sorted for now at least.
In terms of co2, I will be switching to pressurized at the end of the month as I suspect my DIY yeast setup is inadequate, I won't know until my drop tester arrives!

Most of the HC has melted and about 50% of the moss is green with the rest being pretty dark, oddly enough the Pogostomens seems to be doing ok.

@morefirejules08; The tank has only been running about three weeks, I read it's natural to get algae in immature tanks, so hopefully that's it.

@Quetzalcoatl; Cheers, I figured it would be a long road to success, which is why I am starting early with research and planning!

Thanks for all the info, I'll keep an eye on it for a few weeks before adding any new plants. :thumbup:
 
morefirejules08 said:
Just out of interest ceg, your statement that brown diatoms require high light? Is that based on a planted tank environment or any tank set up?

Hi,
Well it's not that diatoms necessarily "require" high light but that high light gives them a major boost. Diatom algal blooms occur in even the lowest tech tanks with low light so it more to do with the instability and poor bacterial load of a newly setup tank. Normally they are not much to worry about as they go through their life cycle and after a few weeks they are not seen again. However, if the lighting is too high then they refuse to go away. A lot of times, when caught early, they can be nipped in the bud by turning down the light to very low level. Fundamentally though, good flow, good CO2, elbow grease and large multiple water changes per week will keep them from getting out of hand.

The OPs problem started with the combination of an internal filter (which are notoriously anemic in flow) and 48 watts of HO T5. This is normally a fatal combination. Add to that the instability of a DIY CO2 and you have the makings of a award winning disaster movie, like Titanic (the bit at the end of the movie, not the love story bit).

We're continually trying to drive home the point that just because plants are aquatic it doesn't mean that they enjoy being underwater. For many species their aquatic adaptations are a means of survival because their homes flood for half the year. In fact the flooding that occurs is often gradual, giving them time to adjust, so that lower leaves get flooded but upper leaves remain above water allowing them access to CO2. By the time the flood waters rise the plant has been able to transition gradually to an aquatic life. The waters are usually turbid so this cuts the level of light. The temperature falls giving them a little more dissolved CO2. Nutrients in the sediment dissolve and leach into the water column allowing them a chance to feed. Some plants never totally get submerged so they live, in a way with a snorkel, with the upper leaves above water.

Hobbyists don't simulate any of this. The plants are simply chucked into the glass box, they are drowned, and everyone thinks it's cool to lob megawatts of photon torpedoes at them. Is it any surprise that they melt into oblivion? It's a miracle that any survive at all. The air breathing apparatus of their terrestrial leaves no longer work as well as it did at the nursery, so give your plants a break and keep the lighting very low when you flood the tank, add loads of CO2 and deliver it to them by using strong filtration/pumping. 90% of the CO2 you are adding goes right out the window so you need to add more in the beginning than you will later on. Add liquid carbon as a supplement. Feed your plants to give them a chance to make the transition. The result of ignoring these principles is that the plants weaken, rot and this renders them vulnerable to predatory algae, who are much better equipped to deal with this hostile environment than plants can ever hope to be. When you flood a tank think of it as the trauma center in which you need to apply triage to get the patients back on their feet.

People freak out about algae when they ought to be freaked out about what they are doing to their plants. When you do right by the plants the algae go away automatically. Light is an enemy at tank startup. Keep it subdued and you'll have a healthier tank. High flow, nutrients and CO2 are your allies. Invite them in and they'll pay dividends.

Cheers,
 
I'll definitely be taking Clive's advice and getting a better filter, I was thinking of an external one to free up space and diffuse co2 Inline, what brand/type of filter would people recommend for a 100L tank to get a good flow?

Cheers!
Dave.
 
Hi Dave,
Try as much as possible to follow the 10X rule mate. Multiply your tank size by 10 and get either a filter with a per hour rating of that flow, or a combination of filters and supplemental pumps whose ratings add up to that value. I always prefer to get a single filter with that rating as this reduces the number of objects in the tank. So if your tank is a 100L, look for a filter which has a throughput rating of 1000L per hour or get two filters which each are rated at 500LPH.

If you have the patience to read through the following threads you'll learn a lot about the importance of water flow and water distribution:
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1167
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3766

Cheers,
 
Thanks a lot Clive! So far there's no signs of further algae growth, and the HC closest to the flow is actually doing ok, you were spot on!
I'll check those threads out and get a new filter and co2 setup and at some point I'll post pics.

Thanks!

Dave
 
Just a quick update, following Clive's advice I switched to an external filter which is about 14X (although possibly no-where near the manufacturer's statement) flow rate is good, perhaps maybe a little high so I'm going to set up a second spraybar when I get time.
Next month I'll switch to a pressurized CO2 setup, but for now all I have is DIY.
The diatoms seem to have gone and the hair algae that was on my Riccia has subsided quite a bit too, the Pogostomens Stellata is doing too well! It's reached the top of the tank, not sure where to go from there with it as it's starting to lean.

I wanted to ask about CO2, my DIY unit is powered with a powerhead that diffuses it under my spraybar, I have yet to get a drop checker so I'm not sure of the levels, I do have some Flourish excel though that I figured I could use to boost CO2 until I switch to a proper inline system at the end of the month, is this a bad idea?

My second question:

I have some Christmas moss I tied down to a redwood branch, my first attempt with this stuff was a disaster and it basically rotted and spiked the tank. Back then the tank was uncycled and LFS guy said that was probably what killed it. My tank is fully cycled now and there is no ammonia or nitrites, I've also started dosing with Tropica+. With all that taken into account, is that any other reason why this moss might die off? It now has decent flow, moderate light and the right nutrients, it's only been there a couple of days but it's looking a little jaundiced.

Cheers!

Dave
 
Eldritch12 said:
...The diatoms seem to have gone and the hair algae that was on my Riccia has subsided quite a bit too, the Pogostomens Stellata is doing too well! It's reached the top of the tank, not sure where to go from there with it as it's starting to lean...
Isn't it amazing that it turns out plants grow like weeds once you give them what they really need instead of what you want? P. stellata is an amazing plant, but it will become a hooligan. Some people like to have the long stem fan out at the surface while others just prune it to keep it under control. You can cut it and replant the top. Sometimes it doesn't like to be cut and the pieces rot at the base after a cut. If this happens, you can just let the top float for a few days and then replant, or just toss it. After the bottom part recovers it will through out more branches. P. steletta is really suited to much larger tanks so it might outstay it's welcome in your tank after a while.

Eldritch12 said:
I wanted to ask about CO2, my DIY unit is powered with a powerhead that diffuses it under my spraybar, I have yet to get a drop checker so I'm not sure of the levels, I do have some Flourish excel though that I figured I could use to boost CO2 until I switch to a proper inline system at the end of the month, is this a bad idea?
No, this is a very good idea.

Eldritch12 said:
I have some Christmas moss I tied down to a redwood branch, my first attempt with this stuff was a disaster and it basically rotted and spiked the tank. Back then the tank was uncycled and LFS guy said that was probably what killed it. My tank is fully cycled now and there is no ammonia or nitrites, I've also started dosing with Tropica+. With all that taken into account, is that any other reason why this moss might die off? It now has decent flow, moderate light and the right nutrients, it's only been there a couple of days but it's looking a little jaundiced.
The moss does not care about uncycled tank, only about CO2 and flow. Mosses are difficult to get going so, just as before, you need to ensure high CO2 and good flow to the area where the moss is located. When you tie the moss down it should not be a thick clump otherwise this causes flow blockage. You should lay it out in a very thin layer and allow it to thicken up.

Cheers,
 
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