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New project - opinions appreciated

Nat N

Member
Joined
28 Dec 2011
Messages
120
Hi all,
I am not sure if this is the right place to post - I have a few questions/thoughts which each are of different category...
I am about to order a new tank which I want to be perfect in every aspect... So, what do you think about the following:
- it will be nearly a cube shape - 60 cm x 60 cm x 50 cm (24'' x 24'' x 20''). I am thinking about ordering one lower than “perfect cube” one because of the two reasons: 1) light will get to the bottom better for ground cover plants; 2) I will be able to reach the bottom for planting easier with 20'' height.
- the tank will be in the corner with two sides open to view – I am thinking about having the two sides in Optiwhite glass and the rest in ordinary (for economy reasons). I was thinking about black silicone throughout. Do you think black silicone looks O.K. with low iron glass?
- I have Seachem Flourite in my old tank which I want to use when I move everything from this tank to the new one. This has the benefits of setting the new tank to the good start with the bacteria already present in the substrate and I like the look of it. However, I will need to add more substrate. I am thinking about adding some of ADA Aqua Gravel of a small grade mixing it with Flourite. Will they mix well or will Florite’s bigger particle end up at the top of the mixture? Has anybody tried this?
- The plan is to use a little bit of Oliver Knott substrate at the very bottom (I’ve got some doing nothing at the moment), drizzeled woth Laterite (also already have some which needs to be used) and cover this with the mixture of Flourite and ADA Aqua Gravel. What do you think?

Any thoughts will be appreciated. I need to make a decision about the tank soon as it takes about 6 weeks to make.
 
Hi, dimensions sound good. I would go for full opti though and clear silicon. For same saving reasons. You might want to sell it one day and it will be easier. Plus a benefit of blue shine in glass all round.
Substrate wise if you growing technique work there is no big difference what the substrate is. :thumbup:
 
I should think the Flourite being largely clay product, with possibly some iron ,and being well seasoned,,would negate the need for laterite.
But I defer to those who may know better. :silent:
 
Hi Nat,
Will this be a CO2 enriched tank? A very important bit of data required for proper analysis.

Cheers,
 
I think black silicone can look great but this really depends on personal taste & surrounding room decor?
I would definitely go for the same glass all around though - how much differance in price would that be?
The tank height could be lowered even more to save on glass & make afar more modern looking tank, consider 16''!
 
Clear silicone and all optiwhite will definitely give the tank a much better resale value and saleability. So spending the what, extra 30 quid (?) now, will be worth it in the end. Otherwise you restrict yourself to selling only to people who have the same application for it as yourself. In full OW with clear silicone it could be used in many other ways (inluding by yourself of course).

I have a preference for uniform substrate unless it is specifically contrived (ie a river bed /path out of sand or some such) so as you are asking, I would stick with more of what you already have. Mixing really works in some scapes but not others so it could also depend on what you have in mind for your planting.
 
Hi guys,
Thanks very much! You did convince me about the Optiwite with clear silicon. Having all 4 sides in it will set me off nearly a £100 in comparison to all float glass one but yes, you are right – at the end of the day, it is something I will be ordering only once and live with it for a while! The enjoyment of an Optiwite is probably worth it. :D
Hi Nat,
Will this be a CO2 enriched tank? A very important bit of data required for proper analysis.
Sorry, sorry, sorry – this is of course one of the most important bits of info! Yes, I am going to use CO2. I am thinking about buying a TMC regulator and getting a fire extinguisher for it.
I am also going to use the current Eheim which has a flow rate which on its own will be insufficient (3-4 times the volume of the tank by actual flow – roughly estimated, of course!). So, I am going to use an additional source – first, it will be a powerhead from one of the internal filters I have in the loft. I will buy a Koralia “thingy” later on. The reason for this is – media volume is sufficient for biological/mechanical filtration and I do believe there is such a thing as overfiltering in a planted tank (bacteria and plants fighting for the same source of nutrients). Plus, using the powerhead I already have will help to stretch the cost a little bit... :D The total rate of flow will be close to 8 to 10 times the volume per hour.
The reasons for the thoughts about the substrate are:
- I do like Flourite. I like the looks and I like the freedom of re-planting (I am awful with that – like changing the layout!). It is a shame to lose the matured substrate in any case. What I don’t like is some of the bigger “bits” of the substrate which tend to accumulate at the top – makes it tricky to make low growing plants to root properly.
- Using Oliver Knott which I already have simply reduces the cost and adds (I hope) nutrients at the base. I would not use it as a main planting media though because I like re-planting. Laterite – I also already have some (JBL version) and would like to put it to good use.
- Hence, I was thinking that ADA gravel will add small particles to the upper layer to help the ground covering plants. What I am unsure about is whether the mixture of ADA gravel and Flourite will leave me with the same problem of bigger particles of Flourite ending up at the top!
Luckily, I have some time to decide on the substrate as I will be ordering the tank and the cabinet tomorrow.

Clive – do you think the underlayer of Oliver Knott and Laterite is a good thing to do? I am not planning to go completely mad with CO2 and ferts trying to create something which is slightly less maintenance intensive than a full EI?
 
Hi,

Nat N said:
- it will be nearly a cube shape - 60 cm x 60 cm x 50 cm (24'' x 24'' x 20''). I am thinking about ordering one lower than “perfect cube” one because of the two reasons: 1) light will get to the bottom better for ground cover plants; 2) I will be able to reach the bottom for planting easier with 20'' height.

I was thinking that both of these reasons are somewhat mute, unless there is some information we dont know or unless its just personal preference.

24" height is not an issue for most lighting systems of appropriate size for growing just about any plant. The height should not present a physical restriction either unless the tank is placed on an unusally high unit or maybe you are short or even have short arms :) .

30" deep tanks can be a stretch especially in wide tanks, but you shouldnt have that with a 24" cube.
 
Hi Sanj,
Well, I am only a petit female – 1.65 m tall.... I have a tank (“temporary” one which is about to be replaced with this new one) which is just about 50 cm (20’’) from the top to the top layer of the substrate. I just about can comfortably (half comfortably) plant things using my hands. Of course, of course, I have all sorts of planting tools but cannot agree more with maestro Amano saying that sometimes your hands are your best tools. I will be having T5HO lighting but have also read about PAR values... Above all, visually ideal cubes do not look as attractive as slightly lowered ones... A matter of personal choice, I suppose.... :)
 
Hi Nat,
It's just and opinion, but I don't really like cubes because of the depth. This depth causes difficulty in CO2 distribution. As sanj points out, lighting issues are irrelevant. Thinking about lighting before thinking about CO2 is really having the cart before the horse. The shallower the tank, the better, both from a maintenance point of view as well as a flow/distribution point of view. Of course this does not mean that all cubes fail. Far from it. It's just one more thing that complicates life in a CO2 tank, so if you can do without this added issue it would be better to avoid it.

Nat N said:
..I am also going to use the current Eheim which has a flow rate which on its own will be insufficient (3-4 times the volume of the tank by actual flow – roughly estimated, of course!). So, I am going to use an additional source – first, it will be a powerhead from one of the internal filters I have in the loft. I will buy a Koralia “thingy” later on..
I would suggest that you ditch these and just get a larger, more powerful filter. I totally understand the need to stretch the funds, but strapping extra pumps to the interior of the tank is not particularly aesthetic. There are some cheaper Asian knockoff filters on the market now, so one doesn't have to spend a lot to get decent turnover, as well as extra filtration capacity to boot.

Nat N said:
...do you think the underlayer of Oliver Knott and Laterite is a good thing to do? I am not planning to go completely mad with CO2 and ferts trying to create something which is slightly less maintenance intensive than a full EI?
Well, unless you are using a variety of substrates for aesthetic purposes, it really doesn't matter all that much. I remember when Laterite was the substrate Dejour. Everyone was mad about Laterite because it was supposed to be this awesome iron enriched substrate. It turns out that Laterite is not any more awesome than kitty litter, or any molar clay for that matter. That doesn't make it bad, because it's still clay, and clay is a good hydrosoil because of it's CEC, but thee was no point in spending money on Laterite clay when kitty litter was so much cheaper and works in exactly the same way. If you have the Laterite already, then sure, throw it in there to use as a filler so that will be less money to spend on the more expensive clay hydrosoils. Flourite is the same as Laterite, just clay. Again, use it as filler if you want to. If you don't want to use it but you need the bacteria then just wash it and collect the detritus laden water used to wash it. Then pour that water onto your new sediment. Easy. free bacteria+carbohydrates. If these sediments have different grain sizes and different weights, the hydraulic forces of the water + plus gravity will cause segregation over time so that smaller particles will migrate downwards leaving the larger particles on top, so that if they are not the same color it might not look the best.

I really wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle with sediments. These are all clay and clay is clay. If you want to enrich the substrate with nutrients then just lay down a very thin layer of Osmocote on the glass base and cover it with the clay. You can find Osmocote ganules at any garden center and this is a slow release fertilizer, about 1000X cheaper than ripoff root tabs.

This brings us to the next point, which is the idea of maintenance. People are always talking about what a high maintenance "full blown EI" is and how much water changing is necessary, but it is not EI that is the root cause of the maintenace woes. There is a biochemical chain of events that goes something like this:

If you don't want a lot of maintenance, then don't add a lot of CO2+nutrients.
If you don't want to add a lot of CO2+nutrients then don't add a lot of light.

This was the reason for my opening statement about the cart being before the horse. Light drives everything that you are forced to do. So if you start out migrating from a low tech low energy world and then suddenly morph into a megawatt loving Klingon then you'll immediately sell yourself into slavery because you cannot avoid high maintenance if you use high light. If you will purchase a Mondo T5 Death Ray lumanaire unit, then you might want to investigate whether dimming ballasts are available so that you can control the light intensity and thereby control the maintenance.

Cheers,
 
megawatt loving Klingon- think they prefer opera.
 
Hi all,
Thanks very much for the opinions/advice. I pretty much made up my mind about everything now. I cannot go with any other shape rather than a cube because of the space I have for this tank but I have changed some things I initially was thinking about. My only “still thinking about” subject is the brand of the CO2 regulator to buy. I have some time on that though.
Just to clarify things: I am not lazy and don’t mind high maintenance tanks. I thought I might have given a wrong impression about myself. However, I would like to go on a week’s holiday without too drastic disasters in any of my tanks.
By the way – repeated mentioning of “megawatt loving Klingon” makes me quite self-conscious about my set ups. I have a number of tanks with no CO2, water changes every 2 to 4 weeks with minimum ferts which ALL are thriving. The plants are doing great, all green (or red/pink if they are supposed to be) and there is NO algae. O.K. a dozen or so spots of GSA appear on the glass visible enough in about 6 week’s time which I just rub off during water change – that’s about it. All of these have between 2 and just over 3 watts per American gallon of light (PLL or T5). I don’t want to change anything because the tanks are successful but am getting a bit worried of being an “outcast” of the generally accepted rules on this forum...
 
to be blunt. Who cares about being an outcast on a forum? Sounds like you are capable without co2. You will be ok with it.
 
I've been an outcast on here since the day I joined. :D Nothing to worry about. I had some lovely discussions with Clive back in the day, and opinions have changed a LOT since then, including Clive's. ;)

If you find a method that works for you, stick with it. Don't be afraid to try something different and always remember that what works for one tank might fail dismally in another. You can always change if something isn't working.

Ade
 
Hi guys,
Thanks for the support! :D I no longer feel that I am doing something wrong but am just lucky... (Realistically, it cannot be I am lucky like that for months and months with not one but 4 tanks run like this!). For the record: I do have CO2 enriched tanks as well which I dose with more (but not too much!) ferts.
As I said in one of my posts before – I have seen very successful tanks run in a variety of ways and the same method seems to work for one tank and completely fails for another. I myself did have a couple of failures and had to change everything to make the tanks work.
I have already learned quite a lot from Clive and the others, I must say. Agreeing or disagreeing with the others, I have made decisions for my own tanks which seem to be working
My new tank is ordered (well, I just sent an email to the manufacturer with the final specs I want). I have ended up with a budget of around £200-300 more. My car (conveniently!) needs urgent repairs which will set me back by another £400 but I feel happy nevertheless. :lol:
They will see my order on Monday, and 4 to 6 weeks after that the real fun will start...
I am yet to figure out how one posts pics here (tried once and it did not work as I wanted). So, pending this, my crap camera, lack of time with long hours at work and learning to post pics, a journal might be coming... Everyone is invited if this happens. :)
 
Glad your not discouraged because you have 4 successful tanks more than I do, I'm very new to all of this but I'm keen to learn from those that have had success, yourself included.
Give me a poke if you start a journal, who knows I may be able to learn from your wins and losses (if that makes sense).
 
Hi all,
have a number of tanks with no CO2, water changes every 2 to 4 weeks with minimum ferts which ALL are thriving. The plants are doing great, all green (or red/pink if they are supposed to be) and there is NO algae. O.K. a dozen or so spots of GSA appear on the glass visible enough in about 6 week’s time which I just rub off during water change – that’s about it. All of these have between 2 and just over 3 watts per American gallon of light (PLL or T5). I don’t want to change anything because the tanks are successful but am getting a bit worried of being an “outcast” of the generally accepted rules on this forum...
I agree with the others, its "horses for courses". Personally I don't ever intend to use CO2, I run all my tanks nutrient depleted, but with a very large plant mass, I always have a good variety of algae and I've never had an algae "outbreak", I'm also a fanatical water changer. Against that I'm not interested in aquascaping, I only grow a limited range of plants and all of my set-ups are at least semi-permanent (permanent I'd regard as set up for more than 5 years ).

I think of light, nutrients and CO2 are like balls you are juggling, if you have lots of all 3 of them you are throwing the balls a long way in the air, and my personal opinion is that for a lot of us the "low juggle approach" will be more successful long term.

Above all I want all my tanks to be stable, with any changes happening fairly slowly. The advantage of this is that it gives you a chance to make adjustments when things start going "wrong".

Have a look at these:
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=17798&p=182828>
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=16243&p=168678>
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12613>
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14521>.
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10101&p=107831>

cheers Darrel
 
Hi all,
I am back after one of the most stressful weeks at work and happy to report that I ordered the tank and cabinet and will have them delivered in about 4-5 weeks from now.
Darrel,
Thanks very much for the links. I have been reading them a little every evening. My brain was nearly “fried” after work most of the evenings, so I will have another good read of each of them. Nevertheless – great food for thought for me, and great inspiration.
I think of light, nutrients and CO2 are like balls you are juggling, if you have lots of all 3 of them you are throwing the balls a long way in the air, and my personal opinion is that for a lot of us the "low juggle approach" will be more successful long term.
I really like this description...
I was thinking about it and came to the conclusion that what I am trying to do with my tanks is quite a massive task – I realised that I am trying to mix low tech and high tech! So, using your simile, I am trying to establish how high I can comfortably go with this “juggling” to be successful with the tanks and at the same time to keep a certain margin for “neglect” (e.g. holidays) and keeping the tanks capable to go on without having to support them on a daily basis. Trying to combine low tech with high tech, eh? Possibly, it is really silly...
I have been using CO2 at a slow rate in my “temporary” tank (the one which is going to be replaced with the new one). Macros have been added every two weeks with micros added every now and then. It seems to be a happy tank – no algae to speak of and plants and fish doing well. I am going to extend this method a little bit further in the new tank with a little bit more care/ferts/CO2/water changes... and see if this works.
Anyway, as I mentioned before, providing many things turning favourable for me with regards work, spare time, etc., etc. I might start a journal so that everybody could see if that will work... :?:
 
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