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Help ! My plants are going from bad to worse.

A

Antipofish

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I posted recently that my plants looked "dirty". Clive made the sensible suggestion of being a bit more vigorous with my water changes, shaking up the plants, getting in there and moving the detritus out of the base so it can get sucked out at water change. I have done three such changes so far over a perid of ten days.

However, my plants are getting worse and worse. Even the ones that were previously doing ok (Echinodorus Ozelot and Nymphea Rubra) are now starting to faile. I have holes appearing left right and centre, leaf edges disintegrating and cannot shift this film (I reckon its algae as George suggested, though he said it was associated with new tanks and mine has been running for over three months now so its positively middle aged compared to some of the "pro" tanks we see from some members, who just seem to hit the ground running.

Where I had reasonable growth to start with, even that has kind of screeched to a halt.

I put some lovely stauro in there two days ago from Spyder and I saw holes appearing in that today also !

So here are the stats;

tank: 175L 80cmx45cmx55cm
lights: 2 x 24w (one is VERY dim, the reddish one, and the white one is about 6 months old so not as high output as new and there is no reflectors).
photoperiod: 7 hours
CO2: on 2 hours before lights, off 1 hour prior to lights out. About 2 to 3 bps and the dropchecker is still blue at lights on and rarely gets more than dark green.
Ferts/Liquid CO2: 7ml TPN+ daily and 7ml Easycarbo daily (I saw that Ady34 uses twice this amount of ferts !)
substrate: 1.5cm colombo florabase capped with Unipac 1mm Samoa sand.
Temp: 25c
Filtration: Eheim 2078
planting density: about 70% coverage though plants are reasonably well spaced
plant list: Echinodorus Ozelot, Crypts, Crinum Calamistratum, Hygrophila Corymbosa Siamensis 53b, Stauro, Pogostemon Helferi, few wisps of hairgrass, Ludwigia Galndulosa
fish list: 7 rummy nose tetra, 6 corydoras schwartzi, 3 dwarf neon tetras and one otto.

PLEASE someone tell me what is going on. Im getting really despondant over this right now.

Only things of note is that I did have initial ups and downs with CO2 about 3 weeks ago and trying to gauge it right is difficult. And I was running purigen but have not had it in for the past 3 to 4 weeks.

I personally suspect insufficient and poor CO2 distribution, and possibly lack of ferts. I have noticed with this new Eheim, and it was the same with my G6, that the bubbles come out of the spraybar and remain in higher density at the top of the tank. The spraybar just does not force the bubbles low enough in large quantities. BUT surely the CO2 dissolves in the water and the turnover of the filter recirculates it to all levels ?
 
spyder said:
Give more gas, try double your injection rate! You should then see the mist rolling down the front glass when viewed from the side. Slow injection = less mist = less mist at the substrate.

Be careful if you have critters in there.

Thanks matey. Critters are as above. Cant imagine that doubling CO2 at the level I am injecting will cause an issue. Hope not anyway, cos if it does, then I can either have a planted only tank or a fish tank, and at the moment, the fish win hands down :(
 
Can you rehome critters for a week? If so that gives you the confidence to pump as much gas in as possible without risking livestock.

I've been catious about increasing gas in the past, can't imagine what the Mrs would say if I gassed her orphans, but so far so good.

Go for at least 6bps, I must be 12+ bps, I can't count it's that fast.

Lime green!

Edit. I did almost gas them once. After a WC and pipe scrub I flicked on co2 to test it was flowing just before co2 time on. I forgot to knock it off so was injecting 24/7. The folllowing day at lights on they didn't look happy. No casualties after knocking off gas and raising spraybar for half n hour.
 
Id agree with Spyder, increase the gas. If you cant rehome the livestock just do it slowly. You definitely need more C02 if dc is blue a lights on and never gets past dark green. Aim for lime green lights on (even lime green at some point to start with so you can get a feel for how much to adjust), its tricky adjusting to get it right so as not to gas the fish during the day. I know how daunting this is as it took me ages to up the gas, but its the only way, all your symptoms (holes in leaves, disintegration) are c02 related.
Good luck, and steady away.
Cheerio,
Ady.
 
Well following some useful PMs as well as posts on this thread so far (thanks guys its much appreciated), I can report the following...

The Eheim spraybar that comes as standard is pure crud. For a filter that has an RRP of over £400, for it not to come with the full installation kit that they want £30 for as an extra, is shocking ! Because of the way my tank access is laid out it was only practical to position the spraybar on the end and have flow running lengthways. I suspect this would contribute to the poor distribution I referred to before (although the G6 spraybar on it till a couple of days ago was oriented from back to front). However, I have cut the shepherds crook return pipe just before the final bend so the outlet can face along the back wall, and reattached the spraybar (which I intend to extend now too).

The immediate difference to CO2 mist distribution was astonishing ! This, coupled with staged increases to CO2 is my plan forward. BUT if anyone has any thoughts on my increasing my ferts/liquid carbo too, please let me know... Cheers.

I cannot rehome the fish. So will have to up the CO2 gently. Im gonna increase it 50% tomorrow and then when I am around on Saturday it can go up to the double current rate as suggested.
 
Too little fert I do 25ml TPN+ equivalent 5x a week in 80L Tank, you should at least 40-50ml 5x a week
Too little co2 it must get at least green before lights on so start 4 hours and give it way more bps
 
Yeah co2 is clearly the main issue. A bit more circulation wouldn't hurt either. I have a 2071 running on a 125 l tank and since adding two koralias have found that my carpet plants took off. Turns the tank into a bit of a washing machine but only have it on when co2 is on so off most of the day to give fish a rest.
 
Radik said:
Too little fert I do 25ml TPN+ equivalent 5x a week in 80L Tank, you should at least 40-50ml 5x a week
Too little co2 it must get at least green before lights on so start 4 hours and give it way more bps

REally as much as that ? Thats like 10x the recommended dose ! And will be bloody expensive to boot. What about EI ? I think thats my only option at that rate.
 
You need to up your co2 so that the drop checker is green at light on and a nice lime green a few hours after lights on.
 
Antipofish said:
REally as much as that ? Thats like 10x the recommended dose ! And will be bloody expensive to boot. What about EI ? I think thats my only option at that rate.

I'd go with buying dry salts too, far cheaper and yet another thing to fiddle with :rolleyes:

But then I think it's hard to distinguish between nutrient & CO2 deficiency, you may find all the woes go away with better co2 distribution. Use EI levels to at least rule them out and then you could look at leaner dosing from then.

Do you get any stunting on the plant tips or just the poor growth & deterioration?
 
Do you pass your co2 through some kind of reactor? Maybe I overlooked it if you do. My co2 enters via reactors on the outlet of the filter ( did used to have it on the inlet). As already mentioned drop checker should not be blue at lights on. At least mid green.

Also perhaps consider dry ferts? I dose neat into tank into powerhead/spraybar flow.
 
Greg's Pea said:
Antipofish said:
Do you get any stunting on the plant tips or just the poor growth & deterioration?

Can you describe what you mean by this Shaun ? Initially I would say yes and no. The Hygro has slowed right down to virtually nothing but the Stauro and Pog Helferi is growing ok though not as fast. The Ludwigia, which has always been slow, has also slowed further and started to deteriorate.
 
sanj said:
Do you pass your co2 through some kind of reactor? Maybe I overlooked it if you do. My co2 enters via reactors on the outlet of the filter ( did used to have it on the inlet). As already mentioned drop checker should not be blue at lights on. At least mid green.

Also perhaps consider dry ferts? I dose neat into tank into powerhead/spraybar flow.

Hi Sanj, thats the one detail I missed out. I pass the CO2 through an UP inline diffuser which is situated on the return flow AFTER the heater.
 
I think its very likely this is CO2. The symptoms are fairly indicative. Plus you admit yourself you had stability problems - and you know from my journal I had the same and there's an almost immediate effect on the plants, which can take weeks to slowly correct.

My tank is 330l, and even with full dissolution in a reactor, 15x flow and 8+ bps co2, I'm barely getting lime green and my plants are telling me its still not quite enough. Fish are fine, but I have decent surface agitation (probably a chicken and egg things as this problem increases CO2 losses.

I think you can safely whack up your CO2.

As an aside, the only time I have seen pearling on my plants was when I was running co2 24/7 before I added fish, and that was at lower bps rates. I have a feeling that not only is this more stable, but actually may well use less co2 overall. The only question is whether its ok for the fish. Tempted to try it.
 
Antipofish said:
Can you describe what you mean by this Shaun ? Initially I would say yes and no. The Hygro has slowed right down to virtually nothing but the Stauro and Pog Helferi is growing ok though not as fast. The Ludwigia, which has always been slow, has also slowed further and started to deteriorate.

Yes and No - my favourite answer. :thumbup: Progressively smaller new growth or twisted tips.

I spent a long time thinking my plants were loosing their lower leaves from lack of light (thank you matrix), so I kept bumping up the photo-period/reducing floaters only to then find slower, smaller, stunted new growth, followed by no improvement of the lower stem sections.

Since I'm not running co2 or adding any Excel but still want good plant growth rates for nutrient removal (and to save me a fortune buying lots of plants at once!) I've been using some of the weaker CO2 competitors as my indicator to hit the sweet spot of the fastest, healthy growth I can achieve. Through reducing photo-period (9hrs) & altering the floater density I've managed to stop the CO2 related issues.

Plants that have quickly shown nice obvious stunting for me have been HM, HC, MU and ludwigia arctura. I can happily send you a few of those stems if like. There must be many more that showcase low CO2 well but I've found using that combination really helpful as I once I stopped the stunting on the HC the taller stem plants would still show stunted, twisted growth when they reached a set level in the tank. A little bit more fiddling later and now I'm hot to trot with no stunting, descent growth rates and no loss of lower leaves.

Since those plants grow so fast, you can see the stunting in a day or two. This should at least allow you to get the level of CO2 high enough without going overboard.
 
Chris, Tropica recommended doze is for casual people I think with no co2. It is still less than EI, less than half. You can reduce later and observe if plants are getting worse or staying same.
 
Hi Antipofish.

Have you checked for CO2 Leaks?

If your plants where growing well for a while and now are sudenly deteriorating then maybe the gas is escaping somewhere. Than at lights on the damage is being done each day...

Just a thought. Before switching to EI, I had really good growth (190l, quite densly planted) on 1 bubble each 1 or 2 seconds, and only 4ml of TPN+ daily. I know every tank is different, but I noticed in your post that CO2 is 2 or 3 bps and your DC is blue. That rings alarm bells compared to my setup.

As far as I am aware from my limited experience, and from the knowledge of others vast experience on this forum, any physical damage, if not coused by your fishies, is down to insufficient CO2. I recon your CO2 is escaping somewhere (pricy too). and as for dosing 25ml of TPN+ daily (!) sounds like a pain in the wallet too :wideyed:

Anyway, I am a cheapskate with limited experience. Hope you figure it out :thumbup:

Jack
 
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