Fluval Studio 900...'Dragons Crypt' Journal finished.

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

C02 ran out yesterday, left the lights off yesterday and today, c02 refilled and back on now so hopefully minimal plant growth disruption!
Made the mistake of closing the needle valve so previous settings gone, will now need to faff on for a few days to get it set right again .... that may cause me more issues than having no c02 for a day! still learning....Cheerio,
Ady.

No truer words were ever spoken, for those who havnt seen elsewhere on the site, i came home this evening to find a lot of dead fish, dead shrimp, and a lot of nearly dead fish .
I had set the needle valve to what i thought was a suitable level after stupidly closing it after the c02 ran out earlier in the week, but alas i had seriously misjudged it and hence the untimely deaths of at least 50% of my livestock. Im gutted and feel exceptionally guilty about this. Im going to reinstate the bubble counter soon as i now see the benefit of the constant visual guide, even though not particularly accurate it gives a clear indication of the rate of injection (more accurate than assessing the misting from the filter inlet) and i feel if i was still using this i would have been better able to judge the needle valve position and then tweak accordingly over the next few days. I will also ensure next time the c02 runs out to leave the needle valve alone.
I feel very bad that i have directly caused suffering to the fish, but will learn a huge lesson from the mistake and this experience will go a long way in preventing the same thing ever happening again. I hope this can help prevent a similar thing happening to anyone else as its awful.
Chin up and carry on.......
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[killi69]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

That is really awful, I am sorry for you. I am grateful for your post and will certainly try to learn from this. I am new to using CO2 and would not have thought about leaving the valve as it was when switching to a new bottle.

 

[Timms2011]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

Really sorry to hear that mate, but I can tell you obviously never done it on purpose and you would never let it happen again. I lost my Blue Rams a while back from what I believe was not having my GH/KH spot on, I felt awful, BUT it's made me more meticulous about everything i do with my aqurium. Don't be to down your doing a great job, everybody makes mistakes, and that aquatium of yours is still bloody Aeesome!!!

 

[awtong]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

Sorry to hear this news it sounds like it hit you very hard.

This has re-affirmed my decision not to inject CO2. Sometimes I think about adding CO2 to get the high growth rates of others, and to have a larger selection of plants that I could be succesful with. The only thing that stops me is the ££££'s I have invested in plec's and other livestock. It feels wrong to be learning from your mis-fortune but this may save a lot of livestock in the future for other forum members.

Chin up mate.

Andy

 

[dw1305]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

Hi all,
Very sorry to hear this, I'm like "awtong", I won't go down the CO2 route until accidentally gassing your fish isn't an option, as I just wouldn't be able to forgive myself.

this has re-affirmed my decision not to inject CO2. Sometimes I think about adding CO2 to get the high growth rates of others, and to have a larger selection of plants that I could be succesful with. The only thing that stops me is the ££££'s I have invested in plec's and other livestock. It feels wrong to be learning from your mis-fortune but this may save a lot of livestock in the future for other forum members.

cheers Darrel

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

That is really awful, I am sorry for you. I am grateful for your post and will certainly try to learn from this. I am new to using CO2 and would not have thought about leaving the valve as it was when switching to a new bottle.

The frustrating thing is last time i refilled, id left the valve as was to prevent this happening. This time though id removed the cylinder before it actually ran out fully to try and prevent fluctuating levels of c02 and a potentially dangerous sudden c02 'dump'. When doing this i opened the needle valve fully to expel remaining c02 quickly so lost the setting.

Really sorry to hear that mate, but I can tell you obviously never done it on purpose and you would never let it happen again. I lost my Blue Rams a while back from what I believe was not having my GH/KH spot on, I felt awful, BUT it's made me more meticulous about everything i do with my aqurium. Don't be to down your doing a great job, everybody makes mistakes, and that aquatium of yours is still bloody Aeesome!!!

Its an awful way of bringing you back down to earth, when first starting with c02 it took me months to adjust the c02 up incase of gassing the fish and now i took it for granted a little and the dangers of using it have been clearly demonstrated. I sure will not be making the same mistake again.

Sorry to hear this news it sounds like it hit you very hard.

This has re-affirmed my decision not to inject CO2. Sometimes I think about adding CO2 to get the high growth rates of others, and to have a larger selection of plants that I could be succesful with. The only thing that stops me is the ££££'s I have invested in plec's and other livestock. It feels wrong to be learning from your mis-fortune but this may save a lot of livestock in the future for other forum members.

Chin up mate.

Andy

Hi all,
Very sorry to hear this, I'm like "awtong", I won't go down the CO2 route until accidentally gassing your fish isn't an option, as I just wouldn't be able to forgive myself.

this has re-affirmed my decision not to inject CO2. Sometimes I think about adding CO2 to get the high growth rates of others, and to have a larger selection of plants that I could be succesful with. The only thing that stops me is the ££££'s I have invested in plec's and other livestock. It feels wrong to be learning from your mis-fortune but this may save a lot of livestock in the future for other forum members.

cheers Darrel

Hi Andy and Darrel,
this as mentioned certainly demonstrates the potential pitfalls of using c02, one which i feel extremely guilty for. However i would say that this was human error on my part and when cautiously and correctly used c02 is safe. There are potential disasters in all aspects of fishkeeping which can lead to unfortunate scenarios. Heater failure (boiling/chilling), filter failure, electrical faults etc can all lead to a similar demise but i appreciate your decision not to add another danger to the list. When you have greater capital invested in more exotic fish, this obviously adds another element of staying safe, but for me i love planted aquariums and c02 is a means to an end. I have learned from this and will endeavour never to let it be repeated!!!
Cheers,
Ady.

 

[Antipofish]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

I agree with Ady's last comment. I have already expressed my condolences for the loss of livestock, but at the end of the day we are maintaining an unnatural enclosed and limited environment for our flora and fauna. There are a whole host of things that can, and do, go wrong. You can inadvertently overdose Easy Carbo just as easily as injected CO2 going awry. In fact that applies to any chemical. The filter can block, or impellor break whilst away for a weekend. End of bacterial filtration, enter Ammonia and Nitrite spike and demise of livestock. Heaters can fail either on or off. Tanks can crack. CO2 is just another one of the many things that with the best will in the world, we can get wrong. None of them are reason enough for me not to keep fish or not to use any specific methodolgy. Actually I think we all provide a pretty darn good living environment on the whole. Lets face it, 99.9% of us ensure there are no predators in the tank, and thats unnatural too. In their real environment these fish are subject to just as many dangers. Hope that helps to keep things in perspective a little.

Ady, I know you have no intention of giving up mate. But now's the time to cut yourself some slack I reckon. You didn't do this deliberately and you reinstated the settings to your best estimate. Unfortunately it was wrong, but we all know you make exceptional efforts to maintain your aquarium properly, and the images and video clips we have been seeing are testimony to that Don't forget to restock slowly and not all en masse (Im sure you realise this).

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

Ady, I know you have no intention of giving up mate. But now's the time to cut yourself some slack I reckon. You didn't do this deliberately and you reinstated the settings to your best estimate. Unfortunately it was wrong, but we all know you make exceptional efforts to maintain your aquarium properly, and the images and video clips we have been seeing are testimony to that Don't forget to restock slowly and not all en masse (Im sure you realise this).

Cheers Chris,
forwards we go with another lesson learned.
and ill restock slowly
Cheerio,
a slightly happier having saved some of the fish from the brink,
Ady

 

[Aquadream]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

Oh man that's bad when it happens. Rest assured you are not the only one to go trough such disaster.
Just about two months ago the water in my main CRS tank have just run on the floor and in the early morning I found the CRS crawling on the substrate like cockroaches. Fortunately I was not too late and only two have died, but it was hell for me.
So I had my lesson to. Equipment have to be tight. No compromise there.

The tank is gorgeous. I am sure the rest of the fish are happy again.

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

Oh man that's bad when it happens. Rest assured you are not the only one to go trough such disaster.
Just about two months ago the water in my main CRS tank have just run on the floor and in the early morning I found the CRS crawling on the substrate like cockroaches. Fortunately I was not too late and only two have died, but it was hell for me.
So I had my lesson to. Equipment have to be tight. No compromise there.

The tank is gorgeous. I am sure the rest of the fish are happy again.

Sorry to hear that, its a sinking feeling when you first come across it and your experience just shows another danger. Im pleased you managed to save most of your shrimp and its seems were all learning all the time.
thanks and cheerio,
Ady.

 

[O'Neil]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Operation snail removal.

carrot or cucumber in a jar overnight works a treat mate. Assassins dont deposit eggs like that mate, that will be pesky nerite snails that do that.
Also airline hose or slightly larger hose used to suck them out an hour or two after lights out will make short work of them.

Cheers Iain,
just googled them, and your right its nerites that deposit hard eggs. Assasins seem to prefer neutral/alkaline conditions, but ive got loads of snails now, so if i see any assassins i may get a few and see how they do for the long term control. Short term ill stick some veg in and manually remove.
Cheerio,
Ady.

Ady I have assassins and live in newcastle, contact me if your interested.

 

[O'Neil]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

Oh also on the note of how effective assassins can be, I literally had m' trumpet snails on every bit of glass, plant decor, gravel. You name it there were a million snails on it.
I decided to put 10 assassins in and for about 4 months there was little difference, however 6 months on the assassins have had tons of babies and I rarely see a trumpet......considering getting more pest snails to feed them, lol.
So my conclusion is short term cure not really useful, long term they are very effective.
Once the little ones appeared the pest snails population dwindled quickly, I think this mite down the babies appetite and due to their size going for pest snail juveniles preventing them from reaching maturity.

 

[dw1305]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

Hi all,

......unnatural enclosed and limited environment for our flora and fauna. There are a whole host of things that can, and do, go wrong. You can inadvertently overdose Easy Carbo just as easily as injected CO2 going awry. In fact that applies to any chemical. The filter can block, or impellor break whilst away for a weekend. End of bacterial filtration, enter Ammonia and Nitrite spike and demise of livestock. Heaters can fail either on or off. Tanks can crack. CO2 is just another one of the many things that with the best will in the world, we can get wrong....

I don't agree with this, a heater and a filter are requirements for keeping most tropical fish in the UK, they aren't optional extras*, they are requirements.

Additionally we can take measures to protect against filter and heater failure, for example by over-filtering with 2 filters, and having 2 low capacity heaters that we set at slightly different temperatures and replace every ~18 months. Whilst tanks can crack total tank failure, without any warning, is a very uncommon occurrence. Similarly with adding medication or liquid carbon products, that may damage the filter bacteria or reduce oxygenation levels, we can take steps to ensure that it doesn't cause fish death.

CO2 is totally different, it is an entirely optional addition and carries a known risk factor. If you search for "CO2 related death" on this forum, you will find plenty of cases of accidental gassing, as well as other cases where longer term problems are likely to relate to sub-lethal CO2 levels, which are damaging and cause fish death in the longer term.

Nobody sets out to gas their fish, but at present there is no way that you can guarantee that you won't, however much time, care and money you expend. Even in the best case scenario, by using CO2 you are saying:

I'm willing to add an optional factor that has the potential, at random, to kill all of my livestock."

and personally this isn't a risk I'm willing to take.

*(unless we keep very low population densities of a sub-tropical Anabantoid fish like Macropodus spp.)

cheers Darrel

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

mmm......
again as i said already this was human error, which can happen in any part of the hobby, with any equipment.
Darell, whilst i entirely appreciate your decision to not go the c02 route and commend your principle of reducing the risk factor, i do feel that when taking fish from their natural environment, or indeed keeping them full stop you are in all cases adding optional factors which can at random kill all of your livestock, that is the sad side of the hobby. Equipment, even essentials such as filters and heaters which are doubled up on, unless backed up with a generator, fail with power cuts or can be inadvertantly left switched off after maintenance which can lead to deaths. I in no way view my decision to add c02 as a willing option which may kill my livestock, im certainly now more aware of the risks, but unless through measures out of my control such as power failure etc, my livestock will not be getting gassed again as extra vigilence will be used. As for the longer term damage caused by c02 injection, i would be interested to read more about this and its effects. I in no way wish to cause harm or suffering to any livestock i keep and i cannot now change the mistake i have made, only learn a harsh lesson from it.
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[Antipofish]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

Hi all,

......unnatural enclosed and limited environment for our flora and fauna. There are a whole host of things that can, and do, go wrong. You can inadvertently overdose Easy Carbo just as easily as injected CO2 going awry. In fact that applies to any chemical. The filter can block, or impellor break whilst away for a weekend. End of bacterial filtration, enter Ammonia and Nitrite spike and demise of livestock. Heaters can fail either on or off. Tanks can crack. CO2 is just another one of the many things that with the best will in the world, we can get wrong....

I don't agree with this, a heater and a filter are requirements for keeping most tropical fish in the UK, they aren't optional extras*, they are requirements.

Erm, I didn't say they were not requirements! I simply said that they were also things that can go wrong. And actually, depending on what fish you buy, heaters are most definitely NOT requirements. Plenty of homes are sufficiently insulated and centrally heated that a tank heater is not needed.

Additionally we can take measures to protect against filter and heater failure, for example by over-filtering with 2 filters, and having 2 low capacity heaters that we set at slightly different temperatures and replace every ~18 months. Whilst tanks can crack total tank failure, without any warning, is a very uncommon occurrence. Similarly with adding medication or liquid carbon products, that may damage the filter bacteria or reduce oxygenation levels, we can take steps to ensure that it doesn't cause fish death.
Just because you have two filters or two heaters, it still does not mean it is fool proof. A fuse could blow or an RCD trip. There are still plenty of factors that can give rise to aquatic disaster. And lets face it, you are entering into the realms that MOST people will not travel. Very few people are interested in, or can afford to have that kind of duplicated set up. I also did not suggest tank failure was common occurence. Are you suggesting that CO2 gassing of fish IS common Darrel ? Because I dont thing thats correct either. I accept it happens, but I would say that planted aquarium enthusiasts are generally strides ahead in terms of giving their fish the best care, compared to the drones of people who traipse into P@H or their LFS every week to replace the fish they killed the week before through incorrect filter maintenance, or adding them too fast, or whatever other avoidable issue that might have arisen.


CO2 is totally different, it is an entirely optional addition and carries a known risk factor. If you search for "CO2 related death" on this forum, you will find plenty of cases of accidental gassing, as well as other cases where longer term problems are likely to relate to sub-lethal CO2 levels, which are damaging and cause fish death in the longer term.
I dont doubt it happens, but I think you are over emphasising the problem. What I was saying is that there are plenty of other factors which cause fish death. You seem to have missed (or misinterpreted) my point.


Nobody sets out to gas their fish, but at present there is no way that you can guarantee that you won't, however much time, care and money you expend. Even in the best case scenario, by using CO2 you are saying:

I'm willing to add an optional factor that has the potential, at random, to kill all of my livestock."

and personally this isn't a risk I'm willing to take.
Again, I think you are sensationalising the problem because of your own beliefs. But I doubt you are prepared to take your concern for the fish to the ultimate way of preventing fish death, that being not to keep them at all. And again, I refer you to my earlier comment about the fact that rarely are our ornamental fish predated as they would be in nature. If CO2 is not a risk you are prepared to take, fine. I personally am pretty confident in my ability to keep my fish healthy whilst still using CO2, and dont think the risk is any greater than the other risks I mentioned.


*(unless we keep very low population densities of a sub-tropical Anabantoid fish like Macropodus spp.)

cheers Darrel

 

[clonitza]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

I just wonder why this kind subjects have so many replies and the aquarscaping related have more or less none.
Anyway, things fail and the critters die regardless of how much we try to avoid it ...

 

[dw1305]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

Hi all,

Are you suggesting that CO2 gassing of fish IS common Darrel ?

Yes I am. These are the threads produced by the search term "gassed" since May 2011. All of them reference people either killing, or producing severe CO2 related distress, in their fish or shrimps.

<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=21581&p=220528&hilit=gassed#p220528>
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=21313&p=217789&hilit=gassed#p217789>
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=20853&p=215100&hilit=gassed#p215100>
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=20735&p=214086&hilit=gassed#p214086>
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=20081&p=204202&hilit=gassed#p204202>
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17929&p=187328&hilit=gassed#p187328>
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17605&p=180985&hilit=gassed#p180985>
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=17439&p=179884&hilit=gassed#p179884>
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=17151&p=179064&hilit=gassed#p179064>
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=16839&p=173780&hilit=gassed#p173780>
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=16795&p=173488&hilit=gassed#p173488>
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15878&p=168271&hilit=gassed#p168271>
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=16022&p=165899&hilit=gassed#p165899>
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15654&p=162519&hilit=gassed#p162519>.

What I was saying is that there are plenty of other factors which cause fish death. You seem to have missed (or misinterpreted) my point.

There are, but you can use a "Risk matrix" approach to all the things you do with the tank. Some might groan, because of its "health and safety culture" connotations, but it is very useful tool in defining the various levels of risk.

The risk matrix is constructed from the combination of:
The severity of the event.
&
The probability of an event occurring.

In this case the severity of the event is "single or multiple death" and the likelihood of the event is "possible", what ever measures are taken. If you are happy with that risk you can carry on using CO2, if you aren't, then don't. Adding CO2 is entirely optional for the planted tank.

Final point:

Very few people are interested in, or can afford to have that kind of duplicated set up

But this is going to work out a lot cheaper long term than using CO2.

cheers Darrel

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

I just wonder why this kind subjects have so many replies and the aquarscaping related have more or less none.
Anyway, things fail and the critters die regardless of how much we try to avoid it ...

....probably because its a matter of life and death and people should care more for the critters they keep than the way their home looks. It is an aquascaping site, but first and foremost we need to do our best to ensure the livestock is catered for, what good is it to have a beautiful planted aquascape with unhappy fish!
Things do fail and aquarists get it wrong. When using these techniques there is a greater risk, which should clearly be managed by more due care and attention.
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[dw1305]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

Hi all,

As for the longer term damage caused by c02 injection, i would be interested to read more about this and its effects.

Most of the hobby related stuff is anecdotal, but we did have a thread with some details in it:
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=20578&hilit=hypercapnia&start=10>.

If you want to have a search through Google scholar, search for "hypercapnia" in the articles citing "Physiology of fish in intensive culture systems", and that should give you about 25 papers.

One way of ameliorating the effects of high CO2 is to ensure very high levels of oxygenation and flow, this is because the gases are diffusing in and out of the fishes gills along their concentration gradients.

Another would be by choice of live stock, where you need to keep away from rheophilic fish like Otocinclus and most of the smaller loricariids. Fish, from warm water, with the ability to take atmospheric oxygen, for example Corydoras catfish or Betta spp., are less susceptible to higher CO2, as long as their is some gradient between levels of CO2 in their blood and the water.

There are some more oxygenation details here, specifically for rheophilic fish, apologies for the cross-post: <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>

cheers Darrel

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

Hi Darell,
fortunately most of the cited links to c02 gassing above were 'nearly' examples, with a few being equipment failure and others human error. It does however illustrate the added risk of using c02 and should act as an example as to the caution needed by the aquarist. Admittedly i see your point now of it being an extra risk, but this is the hobby we are in and simply adding filtration to increase stocking densities can be seen as a risk also. Without risks we cannot enhance the hobby, and the risk matrix is obviously a choice we are weighing up in our decisions. Hopefully this incident will help others to choose a direction.

In reference to the link: <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=20578&hilit=hypercapnia&start=10>,
i remember being part of that thread now .
Thanks for the information, ill look on google when i have more time available, but from what you have said....

One way of ameliorating the effects of high CO2 is to ensure very high levels of oxygenation and flow, this is because the gases are diffusing in and out of the fishes gills along their concentration gradients.

.....and recent readings from Tom Barr using greater surface agitation and subsequent oxgen increases to raise c02 levels higher without ill effects to the fish, this seems to suggest that it isnt necessarily the level of c02 concentration, but the level of oxygen content that plays a significant role also. I use an airstone and pump to oxygenate my tank water overnight from lights off until 7.30am, the c02 then comes on at 11.30, and lights on at 3.00pm. The pump is used primarily to offer a break to the fish and ensure oxygen levels are sufficient for both plants and fish overnight. Obviously as you yourself had said within the thread: <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=20578&hilit=hypercapnia&start=10>,
the benefits of c02 injected tanks of higher photosynthesis rates/increased oxygenation and filtering benefits help to keep things stable (incidentally this is one of the reasons why i find it acceptable to run c02 injection as it limits the risk matrix to a degree), especially in reference to oxygen availablity during the day, but would it therefore be beneficial to run an airstone overnight until about 1hr into the photoperiod when plants begin oxygenating the water naturally? This way there should always be a high concentration of 02 available, counteracting the higher levels of c02?
The thing that confused me was this passage:
"Nephrocalcinosis occurs when natural CO2 levels in the water are high and/or when additional oxygenation is used to increase carrying capacity, and the total amount of metabolic CO2 excreted is increased as a result (Harrison 1979b)."
Obviously this is related to neophrocalcinosis, not hypercapnia, but in solving one fish health risk are we then not creating another? or is this more only an issue in hard water?
Cheerio,
Ady.