Plant melt in new set up. Transition, C02 or LCP?

[Ady34]

Hi,
currently suffering a bit of plant melt in a less than 2 week old set up, which i suspect is going to turn into a lot of plant melt!
Im currently carrying out every other day 50% water changes to reduce ammonia spike from ADA Aquasoil amazonia powder. No heater, but 76 degrees f due to warm weather.
Staurogyne, and HC all showing signs of leaves softening, ferts and liquid carbon dosing are 1ml macro, 1ml micro, 2.5ml florish excel liquid carbon daily in a 55l tank. Lighting 1x 18w pl 5hr photoperiod. Very low kh and gh 100TDS ish. No livestock.
Any ideas and advice..... is it transition, c02, ferts, water?
Heres the damage:

Staurogyne:

HC:

Cheers,
Ady.

 

[Radik]

Re: Plant melt in new set up.

could be light a bit. I think 24-36w is minimum as tank is high so would say 36w you have to test. Then co2 as well. With gas co2 you would have no issues for sure. You cam make diy for 50-60 600g bottle.

 

[ceg4048]

Re: Plant melt in new set up.

Logically, it can't be insufficient light if the plants have been growing with the same light for Weeks previously. Melting is strictly due to CO2.

Cheers,

 

[Ady34]

Re: Plant melt in new set up.

Hi,

could be light a bit. I think 24-36w is minimum as tank is high so would say 36w you have to test. Then co2 as well. With gas co2 you would have no issues for sure. You cam make diy for 50-60 600g bottle.

Logically, it can't be insufficient light if the plants have been growing with the same light for Weeks previously. Melting is strictly due to CO2.

Cheers,

the plants have only been in for less than 2 weeks, so unsure if they have been growing.
I suspect c02 as it is melting im seeing, but i did have concerns about the light. However the tank is only 40cm tall and i would have thought the plants would have just been very slow to grow rather than melt due to insufficient light. If i were to add more light, this would mean more c02 ferts etc, so i suppose ill have to eliminate c02 first before adding more light?... could i increase the photoperiod, currently 5hrs and no diatoms.
Im already dosing nearly 2x recommended excel, do you think i should increase this, and should i then slowly reduce it when the shrimp are added?
Ive thought about pressurised, but just cant afford it at the moment and thought excel would be ok, if not a little slower.
My other option is to add more mosses and less demanding species.
Cheers,
Ady.

 

[spyder]

Re: Plant melt in new set up.

If the plants were grown emersed then it could be transition. If they were submerged it's co2 related.

I'm sure Mark Evans commented a while back about HC and something along the lines of gas injection along with liquid carbon worked best for himself. I've seen a few journals started with HC and liquid carbon only but I can't recall seeing photo's posted later on with flourishing HC with liquid carbon only.

I've moved some Staurogyne grown in my co2 enriched tank to a non co2 setup. After a week or 2 the lower leaves just drop off. Still waiting to see if it bounces back.

 

[Radik]

Re: Plant melt in new set up.

18W for 40cm is nothing it is like pets at home tank 11W light for 30cm tank which is very weak. You are getting maybe 12-15 par at substrate that's for crypts and anubias only or no co2 tank easy plants.

 

[Ady34]

Re: Plant melt in new set up.

If the plants were grown emersed then it could be transition. If they were submerged it's co2 related.

I'm sure Mark Evans commented a while back about HC and something along the lines of gas injection along with liquid carbon worked best for himself. I've seen a few journals started with HC and liquid carbon only but I can't recall seeing photo's posted later on with flourishing HC with liquid carbon only.

I've moved some Staurogyne grown in my co2 enriched tank to a non co2 setup. After a week or 2 the lower leaves just drop off. Still waiting to see if it bounces back.

1-2 grow tropica!

18W for 40cm is nothing it is like pets at home tank 11W light for 30cm tank which is very weak. You are getting maybe 12-15 par at substrate that's for crypts and anubias only or no co2 tank easy plants.

Im thinking even if it is c02 related, i may need more light for these plants as you suggest. I seem to remember reading somewhere a quote from G Farmer saying on smaller nano etc you can use up to 1w per litre? Im looking into another light unit but seems nowhere stocks the 18w aqua one light seperately. Maybe go for an 11w clip on.
I know melt is generally c02 related but does anyone know how much excel is safe to use with shrimp?
its only the staurogyne and hc that are melting.
Cheers,
Ady.

 

[Ady34]

Right, im currently suspecting transition so im leaving alone for the time being to eliminate this, if the problem persists and there is no improvement, and as im already dosing 2x recommended excel, ill look into more light as this may be down to LCP (Light Compensation Point) and the plants may simply not be getting enough light to survive. Without a par meter its difficult to say what its like at the substrate, but if Radik is right then i wouldnt think 12-15 par to be sufficient for hc in particular, especially as concensus says 40 is the amount required to grow anything. At 2x excel dosing, with new plants which havnt started growing in earnest yet id guess that there was enough c02 available for them to utilise, so at this stage if it isnt transition id guess light.
Please correct my reasoning where applicable
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[Radik]

You can just add one more 11W-18W light and see. Overall tank brightness might mislead lot of people, they assume it is enough but it is not. These tanks are not made for planted aquariums I guess. Maybe for goldfish and plastic plant.
I can show you how to kill moss under very low light where you think you have enough of it. Not very difficult really.

 

[Ady34]

You can just add one more 11W-18W light and see. Overall tank brightness might mislead lot of people, they assume it is enough but it is not. These tanks are not made for planted aquariums I guess. Maybe for goldfish and plastic plant.
I can show you how to kill moss under very low light where you think you have enough of it. Not very difficult really.

Yeah your right that these tanks arnt designed for real planted scapes.
One thing that confuses me slightly about par is that its a light intensity reading? and at the substrate how can this be increased if you add another light unit as surely they just punch the light down the same ie not increasing PAR at any given level? but maybe spreading it throughout more.
Maybe im missing something obvious
Ady.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

One thing that confuses me slightly about par is that its a light intensity reading? and at the substrate how can this be increased if you add another light unit as surely they just punch the light down the same ie not increasing PAR at any given level? but maybe spreading it throughout more.

I would be interested in understanding the science behind this aswell. I had been running 2x39watt over my 180ltr for quite some time and had not seen any substantial growth from my Stauro, or Lobelia Cardinalis. (In the interest of science) I decided to increase the lighting and so added another 39watt tube. I have seen a significant improvement. The Stauro has new growth at it`s base, and my Lobelia has become much more compact, hairgrass has gone wild also.
I would be interested in gaining a PAR reading at substrate level as I struggle with HC everytime I try and grow it. Light aside I can`t see what else I can increase. Flow, Co2, and ferts are all plentifull. Maybe HC prefers certain water conditions that I am failing to supply?