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Discussion: High end 'v' affordability

Bartash

Bartash

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2011
Messages
160
Location
Broadstairs, Kent
After visiting many internet sites offering equipment and products for planted tanks ive noticed that many of them are concentrating on high end/expensive products. I totally agree that these products are great products and can make your tanks look fantastic. I do however feel that the market they are aiming at is the people with money and neglecting the younger hobbyists or people who simply cannot afford these products.

Where are the shops that cater for both?

It seems like many shops have given up trying to source affordable equipment.

Im sure i will be totally flamed for this post but i feel it has to be said, if it was not for all the fantastic people who sell and trade products in the forum many people would not have the amazing tanks they do. I am not aiming this at any certain stores nor will i mention any of those stores and i hope that people can discuss in this thread without naming stores as well.

Is it a case of a hobby becoming so popular that prices naturally rise? or is it because certain companies are forcing prices higher.

Well im sure im waffling here and going off topic but its food for thought and it would be great to hear other peoples views.

Please do not flame anyone that posts in this thread, this is a discussion and every ones own opinion.

My comments are of my own opinion and are not aimed at any person and/or store i have respect for everyone in the hobby and everyone who sells products.

On a side not i got banned from a forum for placing a filter review of a product in their "review" section because it was not bought from one of their sponsors, even though none of their sponsors sold filters. The message i got was that the sponsors pay to keep the site running and its unfair on them. Thats one of the reasons i love UKAPS even though they have sponsors they do not restrict open talk.


Carl
 
The unfortunte truth is that planted aquariums are a tiny part of the market so equipment for planted tanks will always have a premium on them to make it viable for companys to stock them. It sucks I agree but that's just the way it is.

Having said that with the exception of ADA I think most products are worth what they cost and I think if your willing to put time effort and what money you have into the hobby you can still get a beautiful set up.
 
if every one in the country had a planted tank then stuff would be cheaper, spose it comes down to supply and demand, demands are usual set by trends....
 
I some respects i agree, however i don't think the Brits or American take into account the shipping costs for ADA stuff. It cost A LOT of money to pallet stuff over from Japan. The ADA stuff is relatively cheap over in the far east. We just tend to complain about the price or get called fanboys if we actually like the stuff, which IMO isn't really fair, as it is well made stuff, and works well.

There are low end decent stuff on the market as well, you only have to have a look at Tankscape, one of our sponsors, they do affordable glassware and the likes. It also works.

I also agree with the comment regarding planted stuff being still a small aspect of the british market.
 
I think that this is an expensive hobby to get 'seriously' into, but can be made cheaper by tricks such as. Sourcing your own stone or wood.

The reason why people charge these prices is to fund the planted tank industry, and to develop new hardware for us at lower costs.

If its too expensive, buy budget hardware and work within your means. I am on minimum wage as an apprentice £6.08 an hour!! But can afford stuff by saving up. I would rather buy am item that I know works well and I will appreciate, rather than an imported cheapo version.

So overall, we pay the price we pay because the nature of a planted tank demands it. People can cut corners well. But when buying quality items you will pay more in any walk of life, be it chicken breast fillets, or cars.

You get what you pay for.
 
I have to say I agree with Whitey.

You can save up if you really want high end stuff or you can set your budget lower and shop around. There is always second hand bargains to be had if you look for them, and how many people have swapped, traded and sold excellent equipment and plants here on this forum.

Andy
 
It's interesting you say that since I'm trying to source all sorts of things at the moment since I'm getting back into fish keeping having not done it since I was a child (and never run a planted tank before).

As always, one of the cheapest ways I've found to get hold of tanks and stands is via good old generic classifieds, partly because the vast majority of the public don't realise what they have (true for so many hobbies!) and often therefore shift on old kit at a bargain price (example - 4ft tank grabbed by me the other week for £25).

It's harder to get good mechanical hardware at a decent price though because you're dealing with people who have unstood enough to pay a premium in the first place. That said, there's always zooplus.de (thanks to the member who highlighted that to me!), and although I don't own any of their kit, APS seem to be getting more and more positive press for supplying decent basic kit at a good price point.

Substrates can be pricey, but there are various great options that are "non aquatic", such as using John Innes No3, Tesco cat litter, and other alternatives that have been proven.

The one element that I've still not been able to understand the premium on so far is the lighting. For what are effectively standard fluorescent units with an IP35 seal on them, there appears to be a heft markup on most light units. For this reason in particular, I have a resentment towards the fact that Juwel have deliberately created their own non-standard length of tube to drive profit through consumables, which I find hugely aggravating as a customer, and will not purchase their lighting units new as a result.

Plants are becoming more affordable at least, and it appears to be stemming from the growers which is great - Tropica's new range is a great approach in terms of trying to reduce costs so that the buyer only pays for what they're interested in, so I hope the range does well.

Anyways, I feel I've drifted on and off topic a few times, so I'll leave it there!
 
We are nowhere Marine equipment price tags thankfully except ADA but there are alternatives far cheaper than ADA.
 
I understand LancsRijc's point of the juw system but when it comes to state of the art gear such as Aquaray / Grobeam range. 50,000 hours is worth £190ish anytime.

This in turn as I mentioned earlier, funds a fantastic company for creating future marvels of technology.

Progress is costly, yet necessary
 
Hey Bartash, I agree with you. I suppose at the end of the day though, its all relative to your budget and what you perceive as expensive. There are cheaper options for most things in this hobby though. I will suggest some;

Filters: JBL and Sera are a good lower price option if you cannot afford Eheim
CO2: Many members are happy with their Jap imports. I bought from a German company and it was a tad more than Jap import prices but cheaper than Some of the other options. Of course TMC and D&D are some of the higher end products. You can buy cheaper CO2 accessories too. It doesnt have to be expensive glassware, a lot of the alternatives work very well.
Substrate and Hardscape: This can be as expensive or as cheap as you want it. The alternatives are almost endless.

Remember, most products will cost at least 20% less if you buy from a European retailer (I wont name them in the thread but I can tell you if you PM me). I bought a Dennerle 30L Nano set up for £67 including shipping where it would have cost £109 in the UK. Similarly my Eheim electronic was £50 cheaper than the cheapest I could find in the UK).

I saw someone mentioned costs of shipping. One of the jobs I have done in my time was in the supply chain and I had dealings with international shipping (in my case it was from Germany to Australia). Bringing in Japanese products is a similar journey. Believe me, the cost of shipping in no way justifies the hugely inflated prices that these products command. Stands to reason and you only have to look at the cost of bringing cheaper copies from the orient. If it only costs £15 to bring a cheap set of lily pipes in from Japan (and we are talking single items here, not bulk shipping which is cheaper) then how can anyone argue that shipping is a big element of a more expensive glassware product ? Doesn't wash. I agree with certain branded manufacturers you get better quality, but again, how much does an extra 1mm thickness of glass actually cost ?

Overpricing on some of the products in our hobby is something which actually really saddens me and baffles me at the same time. A) High prices reduce demand. If some items were cheaper more people would buy them. Then their friends would see them and buy them too. B) This in turn would potentially increase the amount of people in the hobby and the peripheral sales would ultimately rise exponentially. One thing I excelled at when in a selling role for a well known home interior company (OK OK I designed kitchens and bathrooms for MFI for a while, for my sins) was recognising that if you sell more for less the end profit is higher. That worked for the company I worked for and my own pocket due to the commission structure. Its such a simple economic concept I fail to understand how some companies are unwilling to embrace it.

Just my two 'pennorth :)
 
ianho said:
I some respects i agree, however i don't think the Brits or American take into account the shipping costs for ADA stuff. It cost A LOT of money to pallet stuff over from Japan. The ADA stuff is relatively cheap over in the far east. We just tend to complain about the price or get called fanboys if we actually like the stuff, which IMO isn't really fair, as it is well made stuff, and works well.

There are low end decent stuff on the market as well, you only have to have a look at Tankscape, one of our sponsors, they do affordable glassware and the likes. It also works.

I also agree with the comment regarding planted stuff being still a small aspect of the british market.
Click to expand...

Oh Hades. Reef folks here however will plunk down serious coin for anything. The Freshwater side has always been a notorious cheap lot in the USA. Fish and plant cost have stayed the same since the 1970's for freshwater.

I like ADA, and support some of their products, but I'm not a blind loyalist either.
That's the difference between a fanboy and some degree of reasonable and rational pragmatism.
This is true for Dupla, Seachem, various other product lines.

I've long advocated using cheap DIY ferts.
Building your own CO2.
Looking for a good local company for tanks, stands, lighting etc.

For kids without much $, ADA is out of the question.

So much like scaping, it's really depends on one's goals, they have a certain amount of time, $, skill etc.
 
After learning a few expensive experiences, I now do more of DIY when possible. Swap plants, fauna, equipment...

Check threads on DIYing external filters, substrates, CO2, lights etc, AND most importantly, share your methods & ideas for others to benefit.

Lack of money has to be made up with household innovation. My lfs sells even rubber tubes & valves at weird prices, and loads of suckers get sucked. Just pay visit to hardware stores, garden/farmers' stores, google, & innovate for own self.

I always check Tom's EI and CO2 Venturi for inspiration.

niru
 
I was recently looking back some of my old orders from AE, caterhouse, etc when I started up my first 40G planted. Couldn't believe how much I'd spent. (Easily £1k+) But at the time I could happily afford it, and got a lot out of it, so I don't regret it one bit.

Right now I'm on the other end of the spectrum though. DIY, cheap brands, cat litter. What I wouldn't give to be able to pay for overpriced high quality stuff lol.
 
It can be done cheaply if you have the knowledge. Unfortunately if you've just entered the hobby the first place you'll look is at your LFS or some of the big online retailers and these aren't the best places if you want to cut costs.

Wood or rocks? Collect your own.

Tanks? Ebay or find a custom builder.

Lights etc? DIY or buy from hydroponics sites. An aquarium label automatically adds % to the cost.

Ferts? Buy them dry. MASSIVE savings.

Co2? Fire extinguisher.

Substrate? Soil or cat litter.

All Pond Solutions needs a mention. Great budget site.
Plants? Forums.
 
The only thing I find hard to compromise with, is the substrate.
I know lots of different materials work but, for me at least, nothing comes close to the ADA substrates!
I have tried so many forms in an effort to prevent paying high prices but, if I really want strong, easy, trouble free growth then it has to be ADA!
For virtually every other component I can DIY or compromise & get the results I want.
 
I have noticed that lots of the succesful tanks on here use the more premiun substrates, + alot of skill lol that im still trying to emulate.

haha my next tank will have some ada substrate which annoyingly will be one less thing i can blame my own failures on :~)
 
foxfish said:
The only thing I find hard to compromise with, is the substrate.
I know lots of different materials work but, for me at least, nothing comes close to the ADA substrates!
I have tried so many forms in an effort to prevent paying high prices but, if I really want strong, easy, trouble free growth then it has to be ADA!
For virtually every other component I can DIY or compromise & get the results I want.
Click to expand...

Hi Foxfish. This is an interesting comment. I have read that Columbo florabase is taken from the same quarry as ADA aquasoil and even processed in the same factory. They are both nutrient enriched. The florabase works out 10% cheaper for 10% more (as a rule of thumb). Have you tried the Columbo one at all ? I would love to see a side by side comparison of the two products to put an end to the "controversy" the two can cause. :) There is at least two aquascapers on here who I know swear by it and their results cannot be denied. And I know of at least another two more who wont use anything other than ADA. I have used Columbo and was not that enamoured but I was very new at the time and perhaps did not give it a chance. I am yet to use ADA but may give it a go sometime. Interesting topic though. One thing I wont be using again is cat litter. And even that is personal preference cos I know others love the stuff :)
 
For a start, try All Pond Solutions for hardware. Very cheap but quality products that do exactly what they say on the tin, and customer service is excellent. The rest you can source relatively cheaply through research. This forum, as I am sure you know by now is a great place to start, my advice would be to look at soil substrates.
 
I'd actually be keen to know of any "high end" shops within easy travelling distance of West London/Surrey as all of the LFS I've been to recently have been low to middle! I'd like to see some of the stuff I can't afford up close! :D
 
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