Lighting Advice Needed

[mark4785]

Being in Derbyshire and being just on the wrong side of the boarder originally the water from the taps is rock hard with almost everywhere being limestone and sandstone I imagine it's got a very high level of caco3 like mine does/did.

Crypts naturally come from rivers with solid limestone basins, I suspect that this is the origin of their adaptation, vallis too have this particular adaptation.

Another issue is that higher levels of hardness seem to impede co2 uptake so more needs to be injected.

The other thing could be to cut the water slowly with RO. This also would play well with the stress associated the HOITH disease, fish kept in water much harder than their source are under constant stress and this would explain it much better than fluctuations in co2 which most fish adapt to as similar things happen naturally. It's anecdotal but a lot of people who have struggled with it are keeping fish, particularly Amazonian cichlids, are located in hard water areas without cutting the water or using some other method to reduce ph/tds load etc.

The only time I've seen a GBR stressed by the environment that its in was when I added a male GBR to an aquarium that had just come to the end of a fishless cycle. There was no measurable ammonia/nitrite, but the bicarbonate of soda that I had been adding constantly throughout the cycling period must have become engrained into all of the surfaces in the aquarium. The fish would respond by flicking off of objects that had come into contact with the bicarbonate of soda due to the increased KH and PH value that it gives off.

I keep a log book of things like PH, KH, GH among other things that I conduct on my pond water and I can confirm that my tap water has a KH of 4dH and a GH of 6dH which isn't too hard. The GBR's that I have had thrive very well in this kind of water and I've never seen the need to go down the RO route because I think its a route that a 'mad scientist' would take with all the water filtering and conditioning that is needed. I've seen many people say that they've lost their GBR's within a week after purchase and it could be that those GBR's are dying in precisely managed RO water. They are difficult fish to keep alive and breed, but I've managed to keep a male alive for 16 months (he was about 1 yr old when I bought him from the store) in good old de-chrlorinated Derbyshire tap water.

 

[mark4785]

Hi Mark, do you know what the total alkalinity / carbonates are of the tap water you are using to do the water changes? I read you said a hardness of 6dH, but do you know the kH / ppm CaCO3 from the water provider? (can get a water report from their website and is really revealing regarding ferts and effectiveness of test kits etc).

Pretty sure Garuf has nailed it with the biogenic decalcification hunch, each Friday with your water change you are providing a big dose of carbon in the bicarbonate form that certain plants will, if given enough light energy / lack of CO2, be able to strip down to CO2, the downside is the white calcium carbonate deposits on the leaves - they go kinda crusty! I've had it on loads on my plants - seen it on Cryptocorynes, Cyperus Helferi, Echinodorus, etc (my tapwater has 185ppm Calcium Carbonate), not all plants can do this and it's an adaptation that works for plants coming from hardwaters.

I'm not seeing carbon deficiency so much as carbonate efficiency by certain plants...and the algae.
Solutions:-
1.lower light (regrow the salvinia?) as per Clive's original suggestion...dissolved CO2 at current concentrations will match the rate of photosynthesis, without plants / pulling on the carbonates for food.
2.Lower carbonate going into tank (mix with rainwater / RO)...will mean you can add same level of CO2 as current, but have a greater percent in solution as simple dissolved CO2.
3. Dance a finer line with injecting more CO2, and most importantly, inject when the plants most need it, so that the carbonate reserves aren't dipped into by the plants, as was also suggested.
4. Lower the frequency of water changes, inject the same level of CO2, so that the alkalinity slowly falls with the removal of crusty leaves, and maintain a lower carbonate, essentially living with it. Will mean adjusting fert parameters / monitoring the buffering capacity of the remaining carbonate reserves, etc.

I think all these things are the Catch 22 of hard tap water, but at least your plants are growing and you care for the wellbeing in the tank, so it's a challenge rather than a disaster.

I hope you find a solution that works for you

regards

Gary

Hi there,

The KH value of my water is 4dH but I've never tested for CacO3. Would you advise that I test it? Unlike ammonia and nitrite, I don't know what constitutes a 'good' calcium level. I'd certainly consider, even though I think it's a bit excessive and troublesome, adopting the usage of RO water if the calcium concentration is inappropriate.

I have followed Garuf's advise and took some of the white particles out of the tank. The sample is on a white cloth and I'm waiting for the water to dry up so I just have the solids left. I've been told to apply vinegar to the sample; apparently if some fizzing occurs, I am dealing with carbon deposits if I remember correctly??

 

[Nathaniel Whiteside]

Not carbon,Carbonate.

 

[NatureBoy]

Being in Derbyshire and being just on the wrong side of the boarder originally the water from the taps is rock hard with almost everywhere being limestone and sandstone I imagine it's got a very high level of caco3 like mine does/did.

Crypts naturally come from rivers with solid limestone basins, I suspect that this is the origin of their adaptation, vallis too have this particular adaptation.

Another issue is that higher levels of hardness seem to impede co2 uptake so more needs to be injected.

The other thing could be to cut the water slowly with RO. This also would play well with the stress associated the HOITH disease, fish kept in water much harder than their source are under constant stress and this would explain it much better than fluctuations in co2 which most fish adapt to as similar things happen naturally. It's anecdotal but a lot of people who have struggled with it are keeping fish, particularly Amazonian cichlids, are located in hard water areas without cutting the water or using some other method to reduce ph/tds load etc.

The only time I've seen a GBR stressed by the environment that its in was when I added a male GBR to an aquarium that had just come to the end of a fishless cycle. There was no measurable ammonia/nitrite, but the bicarbonate of soda that I had been adding constantly throughout the cycling period must have become engrained into all of the surfaces in the aquarium. The fish would respond by flicking off of objects that had come into contact with the bicarbonate of soda due to the increased KH and PH value that it gives off.

Just wondering are you still adding the bicarbonate of soda?

 

[mark4785]

If you can, is it possible to get some of the particles out dampen them off and then perform the vinegar test on them, if they fizz then we've identified that it's a calcium deposit, if not then it's something else.

I've performed that vinegar test and there was no fizzing at all. The white particles are re-growing on the filter, glass and plants despite having completely removed it several days ago! I have no idea what it is now; I don't know whether to treat it as an algae (it doesn't look like an algae to me) or something entirely different.

Just wondering are you still adding the bicarbonate of soda?

[/quote]

No, I only use it during a fishless cycle to boost the PH. I would never use it in a fish-in cycle or established aquarium as its too hazardous.

 

[mark4785]

Should I try a blackout? Will that get rid of the white particles??

 

[Nathaniel Whiteside]

Have a Blackout. Do a 50% Water change then another tomorrow.

Then see how you fare? Leaving lights and co2 off till you know what it is could help.

I still think its a reaction of ferts.

 

[mark4785]

Have a Blackout. Do a 50% Water change then another tomorrow.

Then see how you fare? Leaving lights and co2 off till you know what it is could help.

I still think its a reaction of ferts.

But I need to use ferts to keep the plants alive. Are you implying that I would need to change the source of my ferts or convert the aquarium into a non-planted aquarium'?

 

[Nathaniel Whiteside]

Are you still dosing Macros and Micros on the same day?

 

[mark4785]

Are you still dosing Macros and Micros on the same day?

No.

Edit: The plants look like they've been snowed on. Whatever it is, it forms really quickly. This whole situation is getting really frustrating now.

 

[mark4785]

Here's the situation at the moment:

Looks awful and its beginning to kill some of the Cryptocoryne Brown due to how dense it's getting.

Are we sure it's not some kind of algae? If it is then doing a blackout would make perfect sense but if it isn't, might I be wasting my time doing a blackout since it might continue to spread?

 

[mark4785]

I've just done some internet research and most other planted tank communities have discussed this 'white dust' has being some sort of substance which is transferred from drift/bog wood. I haven't introduced any bog wood to the aquarium but I added a large amount of plants about 5 weeks ago. It doesn't look like there is any treatment for the substance other than constant water changes and hoovering; if that doesn't work it looks like I will have to remove everything from the aquarium and start again.

There was one forum saying that excessive use dechlorinator can cause the white dust but I don't buy that explanation because I've been using 3x the recommended dosage of Aquasafe for nearly 3 years now.

Edit: I've ordered a very compact UV-C clarifier for the tank since I know that the white particles are not floating to their destination on the leaves. It would appear that a microscopic bacteria of some kind is in the water and once it finds an object to sit on it grows to a visible level. The UV-C should therefore kill it before it has time to sink it's claws into my plants.

 

[darren636]

any reason for triple dosing your water conditioner?

 

[G H Nelson]

Hi Darren
Doesn't Aquasafe not have some sort of Nitrate removal media ingredient.
Ive used it before...seems quite gritty.
Plus i don't think the filtration cuts the mustard...in other words up to the job.
Why don't you rap some filter media around the Koral's for now to remove some of the water column particles.
hoggie

 

[darren636]

if it is the tetra stuff, i stopped using it a while ago. Think mine was the slime coat one though. Unless there is a specific reason to dose extra water conditioner i would not do it.

 

[G H Nelson]

if it is the tetra stuff, i stopped using it a while ago. Think mine was the slime coat one though. Unless there is a specific reason to dose extra water conditioner i would not do it.

I still think its a precipitation..caused by adding something maybe Bicarbonates?
Why is the tank ph6 and the tap water 7.4?
hoggie

 

[Nathaniel Whiteside]

Get some Seachem Prime. Sack the rest of the 'Declorinators' off.

The API 'stress coat' is world gash, so imagine nutafin isn't much better?

 

[G H Nelson]

Mark
Quote(I replace tank water with a PH of 6.0 with dechlorinated tap water with a PH of 7.4.) I follow an EI dosing regime which suggests doing a 50% W/C. Is this intolerable to the Crypts?
Why is the tank ph6 and the tap water 7.4?
hoggie

 

[Garuf]

Hmm, well I'm entirely at a loss.
I can't imagine water changes bothering the crypts much, it's large swings that cause crypt melt, water changes don't produce large enough a swing.
Tanks almost always have a lower ph than tap water down to organic compounds, co2 injection, plant uptake etc. This doesn't strike me as all that unusual.

 

[mark4785]

Hi all, i'll answer a few of the questions posted.

1. I use 3x the dosage of Aqua-safe because I like to see it working. The more you put in the more you are able to see the liquid expanding across the bucket. On the Aqua-safe bottle, it does say to mix the liquid in until you see a few bubbles and it has thoroughly distributed. This happens quicker when I overdose Aqua-safe. I've never seen Aqua-safe remove nitrates from my water column (as somebody mentioned earlier) as my digital nitrate meter indicates an upward nitrate concentration trend throughout the EI dosing regime.

2. The tank water reaches a PH of 6.0 because of the liquid co2 injection. The tap waters got a PH of 7.4 because its got a PH of 7.4 lol.

I will see if I can get some filter media around the koralias (as advised). But this white stuff is like dust. It will likely disperse all over the tank when I pull the filter media away. I'm 80% certain that if I keep sucking it up with the aquarium hoover on top of using a UV-C filter, that it will die.