some algea problems

[kokkie]

Hi guys,

I always had some problems with algea in my juwel vision 260, after dosing ei and a lot of reading I made good progress. But I can't get rid of the green hair algea, BGA and diatoms/ brown algea. A few weeks ago I purchased an eheim compact 3000 to power a diy reactor. I have 2 spraybars mounted against the back of the tank one with the eheim compact and one powered with a jbl 1500 .The flow increseased alot but it doesn't seem to fix the algea problem.

CO2 is fed with a ph-controller but the readings don't fluctuate much, and after recalibrating it only shows about 0.02 difference. My dropchecker is yellow before lights on and remains the same color untill lights off.
The fish don't seem to breath heavy so I think its okay.

The lighting is 2x 54 watt T5 and it's on from 11 am till 7 pm, one reflector attached to the front bulb.

The hair algea only grows on the glass, At least ik think it's hair algea it start with a green smudge and after a few days green threads start to grow of it.

The diatoms/ brown algea grows on the glass and on the older leaves. This algea bothers me the most. each week i have to pull out every stem plant and replant the top sections.

The BGA mostly grows on the top of my 3d background I always spray some easycarbo on it and then it dies off in a few days. But today i spotted a few small spots of BGA on some leaves I wiped it off but I don't know if i have to take other measures.

I can shorten the lighting period but I don't think that's the only problem or is it?

I can upload some pictures or a video of the flow if it helps.

Any help will be appreciated

 

[Iain Sutherland]

hey kokkie, reducing the photoperiod will always help, raising the lights up to reduce the intensity even more so if that is an option. Hair and BBA are both co2 related so you either dont have enough co2 for the amount of light or you arent getting it dispersed all round the tank or both.
Manual removal of hair with a toothbrush, spot dosing the BBA with excel and manual removal of brown algae along with at least twice weekly water changes, good filter maintenance, increase circulation and co2 will begin to turn the tide for you.
Do you dose liquid carbon daily anyway or just to fight the bba? If not start. Otos and snails are very good at munching brown too.
It will take a while but if you religiously do all these things then you will see improvement quite quickly.

 

[foxfish]

Virtually all algae problems are C02 related & I would guess your problem is too.
I would suggest you disconnect your PH controller & things will be fine!

The problems with pH controllers is that the CO2 flow rate is set high to make the pH drop, when the pH reaches a certain value the CO2 is cut off then it comes back on when the pH rises.
The fluctuation of the PH & the irregular input of C02 causes the CO2 levels to fluctuate!
This is not good for plants but fine for algae.
Lots of folk have tried & failed with the use of a PH controller, you can search the forum for more info but, I think that is you main issue...

 

[kokkie]

I have some bba on the background but not on the plants. I gave the background a good scrub last week and dosed easy carbo for a week untill i forgot about it. It doesn't grow back that quick so I'm not to worried about it, its only anoying because it blocks the spraybar holes.

As for the flow I hope it's okay now most plants sway in the flow, but because it's a bowfront tank most of the flow gets directed to the middle as far as I can see.

I've reduced the lightning period with an hour and removed the reflector so I hope this will help a bit . I've read a few topics and articles about injecting co2 without a controller. I think I understand it but I also read you need a good needle valve, I currently have an aqua medic regulator with an inbuild needle valve but is this one accurate enough? Because even a small adjustment increases the bubble rate a lot .

 

[Gary Nelson]

I use a C02 controller but just as a visual indication on pH levels, it not connected to my C02 regulater, although my pH reads around 6.7 before the C02 comes on.... When its been on around 5 hours pH drops to around 6.0, is this normal or would that be classed as inconsistant C02?
My drop checker is also green to yellow when lights first come on.

 

[ceg4048]

...The hair algea only grows on the glass, At least ik think it's hair algea it start with a green smudge and after a few days green threads start to grow of it...

This doesn't sound like hair algae at all. It sounds like Green Dust Algae (GDA) which is a lot more difficult to solve.

...The diatoms/ brown algea grows on the glass and on the older leaves. This algea bothers me the most. each week i have to pull out every stem plant and replant the top sections.

The BGA mostly grows on the top of my 3d background I always spray some easycarbo on it and then it dies off in a few days. But today i spotted a few small spots of BGA on some leaves I wiped it off but I don't know if i have to take other measures.

You have too much light for this stage of the tanks progress. You should disable one bulb immediately.

Also, it is not clear how you are distributing the flow. Can you provide a photo of your outflow and pump installation? I strongly suspect 3d background of contributing to horrible flow patterns in the tank, so I think you need to be very precise in how you distribute.

What and how much are you dosing...Exactly?

Cheers,

 

[kokkie]

Sorry for my english, it isn't as good as it used to be.

I make my own stock solutions . I order the trace elements which is a mix of:
27 grams CSM+B
27 grams MgSO4+7H2O
46 grams K2SO4
solved in 500 ml water
And dose 30 ml of this once a week after the 50% water change along with 30 ppm KNO3 and dose 3 ppm PO4 the next day.
I have some trouble explaining the trace elements mix so I hope it's okay if I post a link were it's been discussed in English.
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.ph ... B-how-much


The 2 spraybars are pointing forward maybe slightly down. The upper spraybar is attached to my JBL crystalprofi 1500, and the bottom spraybar to my eheim compact 3000 pump (set at 3000 L/H) which I use external. The eheim compact also powers the diy reactor I made a few weeks ago.It's not pretty but it works alot better than my previous one

I also made a picture of the green algea yesterday, but you can't see the hair algea growing off of it.

If the 3d background is a problem I'll remove it, but I think I have to empty the tank to remove the background. I don't know if this will cause more issues ?

I really appreciate the help, so hope it's a bit understandable.

 

[ceg4048]

Hi,
There is no trouble with your English. It seems excellent to me. The trouble has to do with collecting enough data from your location 1000 kilometers away in order to properly diagnose. The pictures help a lot. Thanks.

The last picture shows clearly that this is GDA, not hair algae, which means the tank is in serious trouble.

A pH controller can be used successfully, however, it can just as easily cause disaster, because it has no ability to think. A pH controller does not understand that plants grow because of CO2. Plants DO NOT grow because of pH.

The pH of the water is strongly affected by the alkalinity of the water, because alkalinity, by definition, is the ability of water to resist changes in pH. Therefore, if the water has low alkalinity, it does not resist changes in pH. If the water has high alkalinity then it will resist changes in pH. In low alkalinity water it will require only a small amount of CO2 to make a large change in pH. So, while your controller might be very good at measuring pH, it has absolutely no idea how to measure CO2. It is entirely possible therefore that the pH changes that you are commanding are easily attained with small amounts of CO2. If small amounts of CO2 are being injected then the plants will suffer the effects of poor CO2 - which are hair algae, BBA, GDA and other types. The small amounts of CO2 might have been OK when there was only a small amount of plant mass in the tank, but as the plants grow there is more plant mass which requires more CO2. The pH controller has no idea about this factor, so it continues to inject small amounts of CO2 to drive the water's pH.

I have only just described a possible scenario. I do not really know what the alkalinity of your water is, so I cannot say for certain that the problem is due to low alkalinity corrupting the pH controller. However, it is clear from the symptoms that poor CO2 is a contributing factor so we need to determine the cause of poor CO2. It may be that the alkalinity is not low but that you would need to command a lower pH value than you are commanding, however, for now, it's probably a better idea, as others have suggested, to stop the controlling function and to use a solenoid to turn on/off the CO2.

If the plants are suffering BGA then this means automatically that they are suffering poor NO3. You need to explain how you are preparing your NO3 and PO4 mixtures and how much you are dosing in the same way that you explained your micro mix. Saying that you have Xppm of this or that really means nothing. Number of grams of powder and number ml of dosing gives the best information.

I don't like to tell people to remove their 3D background because firstly, it's only my suspicion that they disrupt flow - I haven't verified it. Secondly, it is an issue of aesthetics, so some people prefer to keep it. The people who do remove their 3D background and who report their findings after removal have confirmed that in their case, flow and plant health were improved. This does not mean all tanks with 3D backgrounds have problems though. Thirdly, The backgrounds are glued on with silicone so the tank has to be drained and the silicone cut and scraped with a razor, so it is a messy procedure.

The combination of the algae types in your tank does seem to indicate poor overall flow, considering that you have a proven spraybar configuration with adequate flow rate, and especially if it can be confirmed that the injection rate and the NO3 dosing are normal for this size tank. You MAY NOT need to remove the background if it can be confirmed that CO2 injection rate is poor and that NO3 dosing is low.


Cheers,

 

[nry]

How long ago did the new filter go in? When I put a Koralia in my tank, it took a few weeks before the algae on the glass cleared up, each week still needed scraped. 3 weeks in and gone, never came back.

That aside the CO2 and fertilising are worth checking as above

 

[kokkie]

I don't know the exact date but I think it's almost 3 weeks ago when I installed the eheim compact. I am scraping off the algea as good as possible but it doesn't seem to mind. however I think the algea growth has reduced a little bit after I installed the new pump

I couldn't remove 1 bulb because they would both turn off so I attached the reflectors to the bottom of the bulb so all the light gets directed up, hope that's okay.
I did the weekly waterchange yesterday and I've removed most of the algea and trimmed the plants. I had to throw the hottonia palustris in the bin, it was al covered in brown algea. I don't know the alkalinity myself. I've learned through reading and experience not to trust the test kits, different brands give different readings. The most accurate reading I think I got was KH 4-6.

But I went to the LFS today to get a bubble counter which I needed. I'll try to setup the co2 installation without the controller asap, but I think I don't have time untill next week since I have to watch the fish not being gassed. I'm actually looking forward to get rid of the controller

I order KNO3 and KH2PO4 from the same webshop as the trace elements. I used james' planted tank dosing calculator and double checked it with another stock solution calculator te make sure I got it right.

I can't remember the exact amounts of KNO3 and KH2PO4 I put in to make the stock solutions. I wish I kept a log.

For the NO3 stock solution I entered 260 liters as the volume of the tank, add ... grams potassium nitrate and mix with 1000 ml of water. I change the amount of grams untill the calculator will say: 1 ml of solution that is added to your tank will add 0.5 ppm nitrate. Which I've written on the bottle, so I won't forget.

the KH2PO4 is mostly the same, the only difference is I put it in a 500 ml bottle and add ... grams of potassium phosphate to let 1 ml of stock solution increase the PO4 in the tank with 0,1 ppm.

I've recalculated it and there should be 210- 214 grams of KNO3 in the 1L bottle and 18-19 grams of KH2PO4 in the 500 ml bottle, don't know if it helps?

So each week I add:

30 ml of micro mix
60 ml of NO3 stocksolution
30 ml of PO4 stocksolution

I'll wait with removing the background and see if the algea will start to dissappear after I removed the controller.

 

[Iain Sutherland]

Personally i found making solutions up a bore, getting fixated on grams, mls and ppm... much easier to just throw the powder straight in the tank by the 1/2 teaspoon. I always heap the spoon as well so heavily overdose, the cost is so minimal and can only be beneficial (unless you have delicate shrimp and worried about TDS)
Ferts is the one thing that can easily be ticked off the list... flow,co2 and light can then be your focus.

 

[ceg4048]

...I've recalculated it and there should be 210- 214 grams of KNO3 in the 1L bottle and 18-19 grams of KH2PO4 in the 500 ml bottle, don't know if it helps?

So each week I add:

30 ml of micro mix
60 ml of NO3 stocksolution
30 ml of PO4 stocksolution...

Hi,
OK, thanks for that data. The mixture and dosing are correct. The information you have provided indicates that dosing is correct, and that distribution method and flow rates are both correct (assuming there are no hidden kinks in the tubing to choke the flow).

This leaves CO2 injection rate as still unknown and it also indicates that flow is being disrupted at those locations where the BGA has attacked, therefore in my view, the background is still highly suspect, however, the damage might have occurred during the period before you had improved the flow rate.

You have reduced the lighting intensity so this is a good thing. You can also do multiple water changes during the week and these two actions will help to reduce the diatoms and BGA. Also give your filter a good cleaning if you have not done so within the past month or so as dirty filters have been implicated in BGA.

According to the most trusted source (T.Barr) the GDA should be left alone on the glass for 3-4 weeks, even though it will become disgusting and unbearable to look at. Then, it should be removed along with a very large water change. It may require a second treatment of leaving it alone and cleaning.

Concentrate on getting good CO2 injection rate. Trim the background plants to reduce flow blockage. You can even double your macro dosing to combat the suspected poor flow. This would help subdue the BGA.

Also, if possible, it would be useful to see the spray pattern of the spraybars. Can you lower the water level and take another picture so that we can see the spray pattern from both bars?

Cheers,

 

[kokkie]

I did a wc today and tried to remove the diatoms without scraping of the GDA, but there wasn't much algea on the glass I also dosed the micro mix and the NO3 as usual and I will dose the PO4 tomorrow morning. I'll do another wc on wednesday and try to do another one in the weekend. I think I cleaned the filter last month so I'll do it again wednesday.

I don't like the background myself, I can't properly attach the spraybars and it's such a hassle to get the bba off.
The only reason why it's still in there because it's a lot off work to get it out and I'll probably have those silicone stains on the glass.

Sorry for the bad quality photo's they looked better on the camera. As you can see some of the holes got plugged because of the stuff that gets sucked in by the eheim compact. I'll see if I can find some netting or mesh to put around the intake of the pump and hope that will help. I hope these photo's are good or do you need other angles?

eheim compact only :

I also noticed that the leaves of the A. rosefolia where getting translucent. I removed the bottom and replanted the tops last week. I don't know if it's becuase of the reduced lighting and it's adapting or something else is wrong?

I've never tried to dose the powder .It does sound easier than those stocksolutions . Don't you need those special measurement spoons or something or do you just use those normal kitchen tea spoons?

 

[ceg4048]

Hi,
Thanks for the photos. I just wanted to make sure that the flows were not crossing and impeding each other. From the patterns it looks like there are uneven flow rates in and across the the two tubes. For example, it looks like in photo number 3 that the area closest to the camera in the upper tube has weaker flow, as the trajectory of the jets does not quite reach the front glass.

In any case I don't think that makes too much of a difference, but it is an area which can be improved if time and resources are available. Fundamentally I believe the injection rate is more suspect.

Translucent leaves is a classic symptom poor CO2. This confirms therefore that you have CO2 related issues.

Cheers,

 

[kokkie]

I've cleaned the filter yesterday, I was a bit shocked how much dirt was in there. the flow increased a bit so I probably have to check the filter more often. The upper spraybar is attached to the jbl filter and it doesn't seem have enough power to reach the front glass, I thought it was okay as I got the eheim compact for the flow.
I tied some netting around the intake of the eheim compact today. So that should prevent the spraybar holes being plugged ,but I'll clean the spraybars again and have a look if the flow is more even.

I also plugged the solenoid on a timer instead of the ph controller and I think I almost got it right. I used the ph controller to be sure I wasn't adding to much co2 . The co2 stabilised around ph 6,35 a bit more than I had as a target before ,the dropchecker was yellow so I'll slightly decrease the bubble rate and aim for a lime green drop checker.I gues I currently have the bubble rate set about 2 bubbles per second.
I am planning to keep the controller on for the next few days so I have another indication of the amount of co2 being added to the tank.

I just have a few questions:

I've read that i need to start the co2 1-2 hours before lights on and have a lime green dc when lights are on. But I'm not sure if my co2 setup can manage that at the current bubble rate ,and I even have to lower it because my co2 ended up to high. Does it really matter how long it takes for the co2 to reach the desired amount before the lights go on?

I didn't have to worry about the bps before, I've already bought a bubble counter but it just goes to fast for me to count, so I can only gues how much bps I inject. Does the bps keep changing when the co2 bottle gets emptier or does it stay the same as long as the pressure of the bottle doesn't drop?

 

[ceg4048]

Hello,
You should never be shocked at how dirty your filter gets. Plants produce a massive amount of organic waste. Not only do the actual bits and pieces of plant leaves fall off and rot, but the plants eject huge amounts of carbohydrates into the water column as waste. The result is a huge amount of detritus which is similar to having a lot of fish in the tank producing waste. You need to clean your filter often, and the more plant mass you have the more frequently you need to clean it.

It makes no sense to me to reduce the gas injection rate when you are suffering from poor CO2. While it is true that bubble sizes vary, 2 bubbles per second on a tank size of 260L sounds extremely low. The bubble rate for this sized tank should be too fast to count. On large tank sizes, the bubble rate therefore becomes almost irrelevant because of the high injection rate required. Are you using 4dkh water in the dropchecker or are you using some other type of water?

On a full cylinder the bubble rates will be stable and as the cylinder empties you may find, with some regulators, that the rates have to be slightly adjusted upward as the cylinder empties.

Cheers,

 

[Ady34]

Hi there,
Do you have any fish in your tank? If you do they will be more reliable than a drop checker at telling you if there's too much co2. I wouldn't worry about the dc showing yellow if the livestock are fine and maybe it's worth trying the dc in a few different positions within the tank to ensure a reasonably accurate picture of what's going on. This will also help to highlight any issues with flow/ distribution.
Cheerio
Ady

 

[G H Nelson]

Quote
I also noticed that the leaves of the A. rosefolia where getting translucent.
Hi
This can also be caused by transforming from emmersed state to the new submerged growth.
If you don't see any new buds/shoots its more likely to be a Co2 issue as Clive stated
hoggie

 

[kokkie]

I'm using a dennerle drop checker with premade fluid. I replaced the fluid Wednesday so it should be okay.
DC: http://www.google.nl/imgres?q=dennerle+ ... ,s:0,i:110

I think I misinterpreted poor co2. I thought you meant it was because of the co2 controller switching on and off, which would lead to inconsistent co2. The problem is my fish are always hiding between the plants I couldn't see much different behaviour exept one N.marginatus which was swimming at the surface and occasionally getting air. Which it normally doesn't do. so I thought the co2 was a bit high for the fish.

It took about 6-7 hours for the ph to stabalize, but i've read that's normal.
I think if I would increase the bubble rate I will end up with to much co2 at the end of the day.

The rosefolia isn't growing new shoots so it's probaly the co2. I think I put the rosefolia in a 3 weeks ago.It was growing a bit but after I trimmed it all the leaves where getting translucent. I'll give at a bit more to time to see if it will recover but it doesn't look promising.

I will have a look if the changing the changing the posistions of the dropchecker will give different reading. It did it some time ago before I got the eheim pump and it didn't show much difference. But it won't hurt to check it again

I will increase the bubble rate again and do some more reading.

 

[ceg4048]

Hi,
Well it's really not clear to me what is in the Dennerle dropchecker. I suppose we will be forced to assume that it is distilled water adjusted to 4dkH, but this lack of information from that vendor annoys me. I suppose it's a small victory that our protests have forced then to at least stop telling people to put tank water in the DC. But why can't they just accurately describe exactly what the contents of the vial are? Why do they feel they need to conjure up some mumbo-jumbo?
Listen to this;
"..employs a high-purity, ready-to-use "ampoule indicator" which has been developed especially by Dennerle..."

What the heck does that mean? Is this liquid a trade secret developed on the Starship Enterprise in 23rd century by Lt. Commander Spock, or did they just mix some sodium bicarbonate with distilled water in a jug until the alkalinity measured 4dkH? Why can't people on Planet Earth just be real?

Anyway, to clarify you concerns, the idea of "poor CO2" can occur for various reasons. The reason that you describe about on/off can result in poor CO2 due to instability of the CO2 concentration in the water. Large variations and fluctuations in the CO2 concentration can results in some types of algae and the mechanism is explained in the thread Stable CO2 - What does it mean exactly?

However, poor CO2 can also mean "insufficient" CO2 concentration for the amount of light striking the leaves. That mechanism is explained in What causes leaves to melt, and what to do now?

Insufficient CO2 can in turn, be the result of different things; lack of flow rate, insufficient distribution of that flow, low injection rate, flow blockages and flow disruption due to too much plant mass or even due to position of hardscape.

Of course, a tank can (and normally does) suffer multiple combinations of all these things, and that's why it is so difficult to get CO2 right. So you need to be aware that just because you have disconnected the controller, this does not automatically mean that you will solve your problem. It just means that you will have a different problem which needs to be fixed.

Turn the gas on several hours before lights on and turn the gas off several hours before lights off. You really only need a few hours of high CO2, but that absolutely must be at lights on. So, you can have a high injection rate to begin with, and then you can shut down the gas and allow the gas that is remaining in the water to feed the plants in the afternoon.

Again, we really don't care about stable pH. This is not what we are concerned about. Have a look at the exercise described in the thread Reliability of Drop Checkers and this will give you an idea what to look for with the pH reading.

Cheers,