My mother in law has recently got a tank (and roped me in to look after it) and has since fallen in love with the zebra plec. I have potentially found a place selling some at a reasonable price and she is now mulling over setting me up with a few and a tank to try and breed them. Now I have told her they aren't the easiest to breed and that it's not a get rich quick thing it's more like I get some awesome fish and we make a little bit every now and then. I am a little worried however that I am going to struggle to sell the young when they are ready. I know a lot of people would love one but I worry people see the price tag and decide they are too pricey. Now I would only be charging a modest price in the zebra plec world but does genuine demand outstrip supply or is it just one of this fish everyone wants but no one wants to pay for?
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Breeding l046
- Thread starter jamesb
- Start date
somethingfishy
Member
check out plecoplanet just signed up myself .. looks like lots of interest to me
Fox
Member
I've seen juveniles at a "very reasonable" sub-£80 - as many as I want! 
I asked why you don't see more breeding groups (as presume people buy in numbers for just that) and he said it's a time-thing, they take a while to grow and settle. Think he said something about 3 years from juvenile, but I was still scraping myself off the floor so possibly heard him wrong.
I do still fancy some, but I'd be scared of seeing an £80 note upside down at the bottom of my tank if something went breasts in the air!
I asked why you don't see more breeding groups (as presume people buy in numbers for just that) and he said it's a time-thing, they take a while to grow and settle. Think he said something about 3 years from juvenile, but I was still scraping myself off the floor so possibly heard him wrong.
I do still fancy some, but I'd be scared of seeing an £80 note upside down at the bottom of my tank if something went breasts in the air!
hinch
Member
£80 is very cheap for zebs even juvs
they're hypans so fairly easy to breed once you get fully setup they like lots of oxygen and the water to be warm apart from that they're not massively fussy although harder water can reduce your spawn count as the eggs are harder to crack so you get more egg losses.
they're slow and gentle so best having a species only tank with lots and lots of caves 1 male to 3 females is a good ratio
have a search around for some zeb biotopes there's some very good examples out there.
they're hypans so fairly easy to breed once you get fully setup they like lots of oxygen and the water to be warm apart from that they're not massively fussy although harder water can reduce your spawn count as the eggs are harder to crack so you get more egg losses.
they're slow and gentle so best having a species only tank with lots and lots of caves 1 male to 3 females is a good ratio
have a search around for some zeb biotopes there's some very good examples out there.
ghostsword
Member
Have a go, and sell them for £50.. or less, and they will go quickly.. They are nice looking fish, but yes, it is still a lot of money for the fish... 
Gary Nelson
Member
ghostsword said:Have a go, and sell them for £50.. or less, and they will go quickly.. They are nice looking fish, but yes, it is still a lot of money for the fish...
A good idea at £50.... Id take one off your hands
hinch
Member
at 50 quid i'd take them all off his hands and resell them for £100-150 each
Hi all,
I haven't kept L46, although I do have some other Hypancistrus. If I set up to breed them, I would definitely have a "wet and dry" trickle filter and at least 2 other filters running, and keep them in a small colony in a large volume tank with only Cherry Shrimps and possibly Corydoras as "dithers" and to encourage spawning.
They are also quite territorial, leading to fighting and potentially death (for both males and females), difficult to sex, highly nocturnal and extremely poor competitors for food.
cheers Darrel
The reason why they are still so expensive is that most people who buy them as juveniles don't actually get the fish to adulthood, let alone breed them successfully. One of the reasons for this is that all Hypancistrus are very unforgiving of any loss of oxygenation, combined this with L046 high temperature requirements and it means any slight loss of filtration capacity or water quality is likely to be fatal. This means you have to be really conscientious about tank care at all the time over the ~4 or 5 years from fry to adult.
I haven't kept L46, although I do have some other Hypancistrus. If I set up to breed them, I would definitely have a "wet and dry" trickle filter and at least 2 other filters running, and keep them in a small colony in a large volume tank with only Cherry Shrimps and possibly Corydoras as "dithers" and to encourage spawning.
They are also quite territorial, leading to fighting and potentially death (for both males and females), difficult to sex, highly nocturnal and extremely poor competitors for food.
cheers Darrel
A
Antipofish
Guest
jamesb said:
See thats the problem James. You are asking is there real demand, and yet you want to be led by what other breeders seem to want to charge. Sell at a price where demand matches what you can supply. ALL of what you can supply (less what you need to keep back to maintain a breeding program. That way you will be maximising your sales AND increasing ownership of this species.
It always annoys me when a species is kept on a pedestal such as Zebras. When I first started fishkeeping you could buy these for £12 each !!! Then because of over fishing of them at source they went on the endangered list (I believe) and a few people decided they were going to try and get rich quick. Some did, some didn't. The same happened in New Zealand with Leopard Geckos when imports of them was stopped. They sell for $1500 over there which is about £700. You can buy them for £30 here !!!
The more people that can afford them, the more will try and breed them, and eventually there will be lots of them available. Thats gotta be a good thing
Fox
Member
Pesky thread!
Was in the fish-room thinking about what I could shuffle to make space for a group! Trouble is, I have the attention span of a gnat so watching them grow over several years from juvies might be a bit of an ask. Having said that, the years seem to be going passed much quicker as I get that bit older
Was in the fish-room thinking about what I could shuffle to make space for a group! Trouble is, I have the attention span of a gnat so watching them grow over several years from juvies might be a bit of an ask. Having said that, the years seem to be going passed much quicker as I get that bit older
Antipofish said:jamesb said:
See thats the problem James. You are asking is there real demand, and yet you want to be led by what other breeders seem to want to charge. Sell at a price where demand matches what you can supply. ALL of what you can supply (less what you need to keep back to maintain a breeding program. That way you will be maximising your sales AND increasing ownership of this species.
It always annoys me when a species is kept on a pedestal such as Zebras. When I first started fishkeeping you could buy these for £12 each !!! Then because of over fishing of them at source they went on the endangered list (I believe) and a few people decided they were going to try and get rich quick. Some did, some didn't. The same happened in New Zealand with Leopard Geckos when imports of them was stopped. They sell for $1500 over there which is about £700. You can buy them for £30 here !!!
The more people that can afford them, the more will try and breed them, and eventually there will be lots of them available. Thats gotta be a good thing
I know where your coming from. And I would have no problem selling them at £50....... Except I know that some people. Will take advantage of that, but 3 of me at 150 then sell the for anything from £300 and double their money. There is nothing wrong with that it's just good business. If this does happen I would have no problem selling them at the lower end of the current price (whatever that may be at the time). And sorting out some money off for members of the forum etc but I am not really willing to sell them at such a price people are able to buy them and double their money for nothing.
A
Antipofish
Guest
jamesb said:Antipofish said:jamesb said:
See thats the problem James. You are asking is there real demand, and yet you want to be led by what other breeders seem to want to charge. Sell at a price where demand matches what you can supply. ALL of what you can supply (less what you need to keep back to maintain a breeding program. That way you will be maximising your sales AND increasing ownership of this species.
It always annoys me when a species is kept on a pedestal such as Zebras. When I first started fishkeeping you could buy these for £12 each !!! Then because of over fishing of them at source they went on the endangered list (I believe) and a few people decided they were going to try and get rich quick. Some did, some didn't. The same happened in New Zealand with Leopard Geckos when imports of them was stopped. They sell for $1500 over there which is about £700. You can buy them for £30 here !!!
The more people that can afford them, the more will try and breed them, and eventually there will be lots of them available. Thats gotta be a good thing
I know where your coming from. And I would have no problem selling them at £50....... Except I know that some people. Will take advantage of that, but 3 of me at 150 then sell the for anything from £300 and double their money. There is nothing wrong with that it's just good business. If this does happen I would have no problem selling them at the lower end of the current price (whatever that may be at the time). And sorting out some money off for members of the forum etc but I am not really willing to sell them at such a price people are able to buy them and double their money for nothing.
Why not ? What difference does it make to you what they do with them afterwards? They would be their fish to do with as they please surely ? You said above, you would have no problem selling them at 50 quid. What does it matter if they sell them on and make a profit ? You would have got what you wanted for them and it would have enabled you to sell all of them, thus making the venture possible to fund in perpetuity right ? Would it annoy you that they were able to get more than you could ? Or would you rather risk not selling all of what you have ?
If you would be happy with 50 quid, then you would be happy with 50 quid. No ifs buts or maybes. And they wouldn't be making any more than you really. You make 150 out of selling three, and then they make it too. Thats what happens all the time with breeders. If you sell your offspring to a fish shop they will give you 50 quid each and then sell them for 150 plus. But lots of breeders so just that to get rid of them. So why not cut out the middle man and make them available to people who want them but cant afford shop prices ?
It all boils down to whether you want to make money out of it or whether you want to fund something that you would like to do. I suspect if it is successful, even at 50 quid each you will make money. I also suspect that you are right, SOME people may well sell them on at a profit. But most will keep them. I really don't see the quandary.
Here's a little anecdote... Recently my mothers Micra CVT gearbox failed. It would not go into gear. It might have cost several hundred, if not over a thousand if it required a new gearbox. We had two options. Fix it and maybe spend a lot of money or get rid of it. We chose the second option. Then we had two other options. Scrap it or sell it to a local mechanic who might have the chance of making it work. We took the second option because if he managed to, he would be able to make a bit, but we were still getting what we wanted for the car. He fixed it !! We sold it to him for £150 and he sold it for £400 having spent time and a bit on new brushes, and doing a couple of bits of welding. Didn't matter though, cos we got what we wanted and were able to help someone out into the bargain. Just think of it in those terms rather than getting hung up on the thought that someone can make a bit of money as well as you. Like you said mate, thats just good business sense.
JenCliBee
Member
I mean this is the nicest possible way so please don't jump on my reply as being anything other than trying to be helpful lol.
I think your getting a little ahead of yourself in regards to breeding and thinking about potential selling prices. You will ultimately be buying juvi 1 inch fish, yes?. These fish are around about 4 years (min) to getting anywhere near to a breeding age.... however, some wont breed until 6 possibly 7 years.... some wont breed at all. A possible 5-7 years down the line could bounce the price on these fish to silly money, it also could bring them down to pennies as they once were...basically talking about a selling price 5 years prior isn't really gonna help the matter.
Despite some posts stating these are easy to breed, i will inform you there not, many very experienced breeders still have trouble spawning these fish, alot have given up because no matter what they try, they just aren't having any luck.
There is also other factors to price.... desirability, supply and demand is only the half of it..... these fish only produce very small batches of eggs... 15 is considered a very big spawn nowadays.... average is often only 4-7 eggs.... the success rate of rearing fry is probably less than 50%.... 50% on 4 eggs doesn't leave much in the way of any sort of profit once you consider the sellable age for juvi fish is 12 months old.... add the cost of the food, running costs including often water changes, heater requirements (tank needs to be a stable minimum of 82c)... over the year it adds up... selling a fish that you have a couple of for a very low amount will likely to be making a loss not a profit.
Another factor is they often only spawn once maybe twice a year..... again often they spawn once and it could be another couple of years before they spawn again if they spawn again at all.
So..... basically, there are many factors on why these fish hold such a high price... as mentioned supply and demand isn't just the only thing to consider.... you list these fish at £150 each, they will sell, sell them for £100...they will sell quicker, sell them for £50 and they will go like hotcakes, however.... making a loss just to sell a fish which is worth more isn't...1,good business sense... 2, worth breeding them in there first place unless your only intention is to help a population boost.
I would seriously consider buying a different species if your sole intention is to breed..... you are much more likely to make a slight profit and you gain experience and the understanding of actually breeding plecs instead of jumping in at the deep end.
I think your getting a little ahead of yourself in regards to breeding and thinking about potential selling prices. You will ultimately be buying juvi 1 inch fish, yes?. These fish are around about 4 years (min) to getting anywhere near to a breeding age.... however, some wont breed until 6 possibly 7 years.... some wont breed at all. A possible 5-7 years down the line could bounce the price on these fish to silly money, it also could bring them down to pennies as they once were...basically talking about a selling price 5 years prior isn't really gonna help the matter.
Despite some posts stating these are easy to breed, i will inform you there not, many very experienced breeders still have trouble spawning these fish, alot have given up because no matter what they try, they just aren't having any luck.
There is also other factors to price.... desirability, supply and demand is only the half of it..... these fish only produce very small batches of eggs... 15 is considered a very big spawn nowadays.... average is often only 4-7 eggs.... the success rate of rearing fry is probably less than 50%.... 50% on 4 eggs doesn't leave much in the way of any sort of profit once you consider the sellable age for juvi fish is 12 months old.... add the cost of the food, running costs including often water changes, heater requirements (tank needs to be a stable minimum of 82c)... over the year it adds up... selling a fish that you have a couple of for a very low amount will likely to be making a loss not a profit.
Another factor is they often only spawn once maybe twice a year..... again often they spawn once and it could be another couple of years before they spawn again if they spawn again at all.
So..... basically, there are many factors on why these fish hold such a high price... as mentioned supply and demand isn't just the only thing to consider.... you list these fish at £150 each, they will sell, sell them for £100...they will sell quicker, sell them for £50 and they will go like hotcakes, however.... making a loss just to sell a fish which is worth more isn't...1,good business sense... 2, worth breeding them in there first place unless your only intention is to help a population boost.
I would seriously consider buying a different species if your sole intention is to breed..... you are much more likely to make a slight profit and you gain experience and the understanding of actually breeding plecs instead of jumping in at the deep end.
Hi all,
JenCliBee is right, that is the economics of it. They aren't ever going to be a cheap fish, and the lower prices in the past were lower because they were being "strip-mined" from the Rio Xingu. My personal opinion is that most wild caught imports of nearly all Hypancistrus, and most of the other Loricariids, will decline in the future as their populations are further threatened by Agriculture, habitat destruction, hydroelectric dams, gold mining etc., as well as collection for the pet trade. They are classic "K selected" species, like Parrots or Mahogany, and there is no way present levels of exports are sustainable.
If I was looking to breed a reasonably available Plec for pocket money, I'd be looking at Ancistrus claro or a dotty black Bristlenose species like L100, 183 etc, a Hypancistrus L333, L270, L340, L201 or Peckoltia compta (formerly L134).
cheers Darrel
JenCliBee is right, that is the economics of it. They aren't ever going to be a cheap fish, and the lower prices in the past were lower because they were being "strip-mined" from the Rio Xingu. My personal opinion is that most wild caught imports of nearly all Hypancistrus, and most of the other Loricariids, will decline in the future as their populations are further threatened by Agriculture, habitat destruction, hydroelectric dams, gold mining etc., as well as collection for the pet trade. They are classic "K selected" species, like Parrots or Mahogany, and there is no way present levels of exports are sustainable.
If I was looking to breed a reasonably available Plec for pocket money, I'd be looking at Ancistrus claro or a dotty black Bristlenose species like L100, 183 etc, a Hypancistrus L333, L270, L340, L201 or Peckoltia compta (formerly L134).
cheers Darrel
Fox
Member
Truth is you can breed and sell 'regular' bristlenoses easy enough - might only get £1 or so from the local shop, but go in there with 50 or more and you've got the same proceeds an an L046 which might never happen (and will have cost a whole lot more money & time to get that far).
I still quite fancy a group though
I still quite fancy a group though
hinch
Member
i have breeding albino bn's and long fin common and albino bn groups also have groups of l333 and l264's and l014
333's are just starting to spawn now the 264's are ready but difficult to get going its not just a case of sticking in tank and leaving them to it (they're hypans too) I fancied a challenge with the 264's as nobody else breeds them. l14's aren't massively difficult just take alot of cleaning up after and alot of space since they're big fish.
one things for sure I don't exactly make money off of them
333's are just starting to spawn now the 264's are ready but difficult to get going its not just a case of sticking in tank and leaving them to it (they're hypans too) I fancied a challenge with the 264's as nobody else breeds them. l14's aren't massively difficult just take alot of cleaning up after and alot of space since they're big fish.
one things for sure I don't exactly make money off of them
sr20det
Member
I would love the red bn, I have 2 large adults males 4" BN and a medium female 2.5" but alas no joy on the breeding front. I have slate caves, which they do enter, but dont fit 100%, could that be the issue? Would love to breed them.
I think this has got a little out of hand lol. I said in my op that I know it's hard etc and I know it isn't going to make me loads of money and I am more excited about just having them. All I was asking was if it is a struggle to actually sell them seeing as they are rather pricey if you sell them at the current rye i am seeing online. If I don't sell them I am not fussed I love them. I know i may not even get them to spawn etc and that doesnt bother me either.we only got on to actual selling prices due to other peoples suggestions.
JenCliBee
Member
jamesb said:
Not so much it's got out of hand, more some info to let you know what your getting yourself in for before you folk out hundreds of £'s on fish that no one knows the selling price in 5-7 years time. As you say, they are beautiful fish but most zeb keepers will tell you to enjoy them as they are because you may never actually spawn or raise fry.... forget the selling and breeding because it wont bring you much money in even if you manage to spawn them and it's certainly not a get rich quick scheme...see it as you have pets which many, many people drool over and long to keep but just wont/cant justify spending that sort of money.
In the case of the question above... priced right anything will sell.... common prices for juvi 46's are around £100-£120 depending on size... some a little larger go for £150... but yes they do sell and sell well and currently there is always a market for them...again though, in 5 years time no knows what the current market may hold
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