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Marsilea hirsuta - complete melt

AndyTaylor

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2008
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62
As I type, I know this is a dumb question but as I'm not stranger to making a fool of myself, I shall carry on regardless... :D

Is 'melt' contagious?

I had always assumed that it was 'plant-specific' (for want of a better term) but following a bout of melting Staurgyne a nearby and previously healthy and growing Marsilea hirsuta has just turned to mush in 48 hours.
I'm having the normal problems with melting crypts but as these had been moved from a previous set-up, I wasn't hugely concerned.

The only change in water conditions has been the addition of pressurised CO2. Dosing liquid ferts daily and as there are no fish in the tank as yet, I'm making sure to dose plenty.

Anything I'm missing or is this just normal transitional behaviour from a new plant?
 
AndyTaylor said:
...I'm having the normal problems with melting crypts but as these had been moved from a previous set-up, I wasn't hugely concerned....
Hello,
Personally, I would be hugely concerned. This is a sure fire indicator that you do not have enough CO2 for the level of lighting you are putting into the tank. Melt is contagious and it's spread by the "too-much-light-and-not-enough-CO2" virus.

Cheers,
 
ceg4048 said:
Melt is contagious and it's spread by the "too-much-light-and-not-enough-CO2" virus.

Straight to the point as always. :) Thanks a million.

I had already upped the CO2 and I've since reduced the photoperiod by 2 hours. I'll monitor closely and see how we go.
I've noticed some new Marsilea leaves breaking through the substrate so maybe it was just getting going.

I'm having my usual problem of trying to keep fish-friendly CO2 levels without killing the plants. In the past, lack of ability to balance these has sent me straight back to Lo-Tech but I'm determined this time.

Was I completely mistaken in my assumption that crypts always melt after being moved then? I thought it was part of the deal when you uproot them?
 
Hi,
Yes, this is one of the the most common mistaken assumptions that people make. It's probably second only to the assumption that adding inorganic Nitrate to the tank is bad for the tank. See my explanation on page 2 of the thread Trimming Cryptocoryne?

Most of the difficulty people have with CO2 is based on poor distribution methods combined with excessive lighting. People always talk about how much CO2 they are injecting but they typically never mention how much light they are adding. They also neglect to mention how much flow and in what manner the water is being distributed. Because people don't understand the mechanism that causes the melt they then misdiagnose and offer other explanations as to why melting occurs. Might be worth a read of the thread What causes leaves to melt, and what to do now?
If you can provide a photo of your setup, and/or if you can describe the configuration, we should be able to help you figure out a way to improve your CO2 technique.

Cheers,
 
Makes complete sense.

I went from overdosing liquid CO2 while I was getting the pressurised system together, to stopping liquid CO2 altogether as soon as I had the diffuser working without considering the implications of that.
I currently have a bright green drop-checker but I'm guessing that I have flow problems regardless.

Tank is 180L, lit by an Arcadia T5 overtank luminaire with 4x39W T5's. Filter is an Eheim 2213, flow supplemented with a Hydor Mini powerhead. CO2 via a FE/diffuser system. Dosing AE liquid ferts daily

I have a second 2213 which I plan to add but can't just yet. I have a second Hydor Mini which I can add today. I suspect my two flow sources (spraybar & pump) are opposing each other. I recall reading a post regarding this so I will move the Hydor later to be inline with the spray bar.


I'm reading through the threads you linked. Thanks for all the help.
 
Hi Andy,
Have you changed anything with your lighting?
4x t5 39w seems pretty high for a 180l, and even with a lime green dc you could be suffering a shortfall with all that light. Do you have the option of raising the light unit or reducing the number of tubes in use?
Cheerio
Ady
 
Hi ady34.... sorry, my omission. I'm only using 2x39w. I've never had the 4 on together.
 
ADY.. just a really quick post stealer.. I aim to run 3x 30cm cubes off of one 100cm boyu light. lighting is 2x 21w t5's with 1x 21w marine blue light.. I thought this was ideal for my set ups as Im running no co2 just low tech. another persons opinion would help.. then ill leave this post lol

:)
 
AndyTaylor said:
Hi ady34.... sorry, my omission. I'm only using 2x39w. I've never had the 4 on together.

Ah, im running 2x 39w t5 on my 180l tank and ive now got the light unit 12" above the water surface as i too suffered a lot of melt.....best way to stop/prevent it is to reduce lighting intensity and optimise c02/distribution. Too much light is always a killer, learned from Clive and recent mistakes!!!

jackrythm said:
ADY.. just a really quick post stealer.. I aim to run 3x 30cm cubes off of one 100cm boyu light. lighting is 2x 21w t5's with 1x 21w marine blue light.. I thought this was ideal for my set ups as Im running no co2 just low tech. another persons opinion would help.. then ill leave this post lol

:)

probably be ok, do you have the option to set the height of the light unit or even omit one of the bulbs, eg the marine one which may look a bit blue? 63w is probably quite high on 90l? of water for low tech. Low tech will get by on surprisingly little light and the plants will be better off with a lower level without c02....im presuming your opting for low tech plants too?
Wouldnt take that as gospel mind judging by my recent efforts, ive only just started applying some of this theory to my own tank :lol:
 
Hi Andy,
Clive will be the best person to answer this but i remember reading one of his posts about this and perhaps your best bet, if an option, would be to place the spray bar in the centre rear with the koralias either side pointing to the front to give the most even flow pattern back to front. This way you'll get the rolling effect and the water all moving the same way with the flow as even as possible from the different sources. I would think if you put both the koralias at the left/centre they would differ flow wise from your filter but depends on the lph ratings of each. I suppose either way flow will be improved, just need to ensure your flow patterns don't conflict but back to front does seem to be the best way of distributing from what I've read.
Cheerio
Ady
 
or you could get 2 power heads off ebay from china.. may take 2 weeks but you will save loads!

ADY... thanks for your reply mate. the blue light is surprisingly beautiful.. does the fact that their separate cubes that add up to 90l worth of light compare to having one tank of 90l with the same lighting? and yes I am using low tech plants. I didn't want too much light coz im not using co2 or filtration or heating.. as for the t5 tubes.. I find the blue just highlights the white light perfectly. I doubt the blue actually helps plat growth in anyway so I may take out one of the t5 white bulbs and leave me with 1x t5 white and 1x t5 blue.. what you think?

Cheers bud.

JAK
 
I'd happily go the Chine route but I already have the Hydors ready to go. :)

I think one either side of the spray bar is the way to go. The tank has an awkward glass ledge along the back edge so I'll have to get some filter tubing and do an extension piece but it's do-able.

We'll try that for a start and I'm going to hold off on any fauna so I have freedom to up the CO2 levels.

On the plus side, the HC Cuba that I planted on the hardscape seems to have taken off straight away. I can see new roots and the HC that I planted in the substrate is spreading slowly. The Staugyne that isn't melting (most of it) is starting to carpet too.

I'm going to add liquid CO2 until I get the flow issues sorted too.
 
It's wood alright but the same principles should apply. I have a smaller Iwagumi set-up with dragon stone that will be getting some HC next.
It was very straighforward to just push the plant into any suitable cracks. I just got lucky with that wood, I guess. It had loads of suitable holes. It would be possible to drill stone, i suppose?
 
yeah i mean I used a hammer and a screwdriver to break up my dragon stone because its incredibly soft! unfortunately I cant use cuba as im low tech but love the idea.. its definitely a new look. I wonder if there is anything ot there I can do the same to but in low-tech except mosses and ricca obviously..
 
jackrythm said:
or you could get 2 power heads off ebay from china.. may take 2 weeks but you will save loads!

ADY... thanks for your reply mate. the blue light is surprisingly beautiful.. does the fact that their separate cubes that add up to 90l worth of light compare to having one tank of 90l with the same lighting? and yes I am using low tech plants. I didn't want too much light coz im not using co2 or filtration or heating.. as for the t5 tubes.. I find the blue just highlights the white light perfectly. I doubt the blue actually helps plat growth in anyway so I may take out one of the t5 white bulbs and leave me with 1x t5 white and 1x t5 blue.. what you think?

Cheers bud.

JAK

well technically i dont know, common sense suggests it would be the same regardless of tank sizes....im guessing youll be lining them in a row with v. little space between them effectively maximising the available light from the 100cm unit you have? I read somewhwere that on smaller tanks you can add more light, perhaps due to light spill/refraction on smaller water surfaces, but i suspect low tech especially ultra low like your setting up with no filter etc the less the better really to avoid issues.
If you like the blue light then no problem using it....light is light!, i would start off with only 2x 21w and see how you go.
Cheerio,
Ady
 
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