Newly Acquired Fish Dying - Advice Appreciated

[mark4785]

This weekend I purchased 5 Black Neon Tetras for a fully cycled open-top aquarium. Before going to purchase the fish I double checked that the ammonia, nitrite, PH and nitrate levels and temperature were all at suitable levels; they were all within range, as can be seen below:

Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 15 ppm
PH: 7.2
Temperature: 27 degrees C

I introduced the fish to the aquarium at 2:30pm and by 7:00pm, two of them had died and the rest were gasping for oxygen at the water surface. I didn't think that I had any sufficient reason to check the water o2 levels since the water's surface is rippling quite a bit allowing oxygen to enter the water column. In addition, although this aquarium will be a planted tank at some point in the future, there is no co2 injection at this point so this couldn't be the source of low oxygen diffusion. At 7:30pm I checked the o2 levels using a basic test kit and got a o2 reading of between 1-2 mg/l. In contrast, my established planted aquarium had a o2 reading of 8 mg/l.

I am really confused and upset that I've lost two of these fish and would therefore appreciate it if anybody has any explanation as to why oxygen levels in this newly cycled aquarium are horrendously low.

Note: the remaining 3 black neon tetras have been transferred to my planted aquarium and are not gasping/dying.

 

[John S]

How old is the new tank and how did you cycle it?

 

[mark4785]

How old is the new tank and how did you cycle it?

It has been running for 3 months.

I cycled it with pure ammonia; I used the fishforums.net ammonia dosage calculator to work out a recommended ammonia dose to cycle the aquarium which has a 120 litre body of water. It recommended adding 4ml of ammonia every 12 hours until both the ammonia and nitrite parameters reduce to 0 ppm every 12 hours. For 2 weeks now, ammonia and nitrite levels have reduced to 0ppm 12 hours after ammonia dosing.

 

[Matt Warner]

It could be that your test kits are giving an inaccurate reading and that you do still have ammonia and nitrite. Never seen the point in fishless cycling in a planted tank before. Just add loads of fast growing plants and then add your fish a week later. I've never had a problem with this method.
Cheers

 

[mark4785]

It could be that your test kits are giving an inaccurate reading and that you do still have ammonia and nitrite. Never seen the point in fishless cycling in a planted tank before. Just add loads of fast growing plants and then add your fish a week later. I've never had a problem with this method.
Cheers

In my opinion, I think the test kits I use are very accurate as ammonia readings will show when I add ammonia and the nitrite test did show levels of nitrite 1 week into the fishless cycle which is quite conventional. As for the o2 test that I did, the low 1-2 mg/l level does explain why they were gasping. I'm not a huge fan of test kits but they seem to be giving out logical answers.

 

[Matt Warner]

It could be that the water is low in oxygen then as you say. This is probably why the fish are gasping at the surface. The only thing I can think is that you've built up such a large population of bacteria that they are using a lot of the oxygen out of the water. I would do a large water change to replace the oxygen and have a strong surface ripple and run an airstone.

 

[mark4785]

It could be that the water is low in oxygen then as you say. This is probably why the fish are gasping at the surface. The only thing I can think is that you've built up such a large population of bacteria that they are using a lot of the oxygen out of the water. I would do a large water change to replace the oxygen and have a strong surface ripple and run an airstone.

That was my theory too, but a guy helping me with this issue on a support forum seems to think that the gasping may be in response to a PH shock. Bicarbonate of soda is a common thing to use during cycling to up the PH to 8.4 as it is known that this, along with a temperature of 28 degrees C, speeds up the nitrogen cycle. I've been using this substance throughout the cycling period and both me and him seem to think some of it has become trapped in my sand substrate.

Prior to adding the fish, I did a 100% water change and this disturbed the sand and whatever was stuck in it. It may be that bicarbonate of soda has leached out although this doesn't explain why the PH is 7.2.

 

[Antipofish]

Its unlikely to be pH shock. Assuming you acclimatised them properly and didnt just dump them in. Whats your protocol for introducing new fish ? Also what are the dimensions of the tank ? What other fish and how many do you have in there already ?

 

[mark4785]

Its unlikely to be pH shock. Assuming you acclimatised them properly and didnt just dump them in. Whats your protocol for introducing new fish ? Also what are the dimensions of the tank ? What other fish and how many do you have in there already ?

When introducing new fish I acclimatise them for 30 minutes as I did today. The temperature and PH of the tank water and bag of water in which the fish are in (supplied by LFS) are consistent with one another by the end of the 30 minute period.

I don't know the dimensions but I know it holds 120 litres of water.

The tank was empty prior to placing the above mentioned fish in. I never introduce a huge bio-load into a newly established aquarium as I don't think its good practise. I was going to add more Tetras in a graduated fashion which I think is more safe.

 

[nry]

27c seems warm, not sure if it would affect the fish, but I would have presumed 23c or so would be better for tetra?

 

[NatureBoy]

Do as Matty1983 says, with the emphasis on oxygenating the water as much as possible - air pumped into a powerhead / koralia would be great, ensuring a nice fine mixing of air bubbles with the water + surface turbulence with the 'bubbling'. It's the sound you hear in an old school LFS

Without plants, maximising the oxygen available by mechanical means is an essential aspect to ensure fish health (even useful in a planted tank during night, or if you want higher CO2 during the day and still have happy fish). Cycling is as much about maintaining high oxygen as it is cultivating bacteria, the two go hand in hand. It's the 'biological oxygen demand' chestnut - the oxidisation of ammonia to nitrate severely depletes oxygen, so you need to provide more for any other occupants. You've measured the level yourself, and your hunch is that it's very low, hence take the measures suggested to get it to 8mg/l as per the other tank, with or without any other theories you wish to explore.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Darrel, I think if you had gone and said "I told you so" that would have been both disrespectful to me and also indicative that you intend to turn this thread into an ego-war without it having even took of the ground. I'm not sure of your age, but come on, that is fundamentally pathetic for an adult community.

Mark, just so we have no misunderstanding, as you wish I will not post again on any of your threads. But before I go I do have a few comments to make.

I don't understand why you ask for advice, you have repeatedly ignored the advice given to you and now it has killed your fish, but you still continue with the same mantra.

The community of fishforums.net have helped me to establish that the route cause of the deaths were caused by lack of o2 caused by a bacterium growth.

No they haven't, no it wasn't.

Indeed the o2 test kit that I have confirmed the reason for the lack of o2 but I was having difficultly realising the cause of the low o2.

Ahhhhhh. it is even more difficult to test for dissolved oxygen than it is ammonia or nitrate.

The problem could not have stemmed from an ammonia/nitrite problem as the Black neon tetras were placed into the aquarium after having done a 100% W/C.

Ammonia diffuses from the gills of the fish all the time, you have put the fish into a system with no biological filtration capacity, ammonia levels of built up and killed your fish. Your lack of biological filtration is because you have been adding toxic levels of ammonia to your tank.

I'm not sure why you have listed 4 of my previous threads (they certainly have no content within them relating to fishless cycling) other than to try and bolster your view that how I and many others from other online communities conduct their business is different to yours, hence the word "dispiritingly" that you have used in your description of those threads. I think thats incredibly arrogant of you, especially given the fact that every one of those threads were a request for advise. I would recommend to any people viewing this thread to keep an open mind in their determination of how to set-up a planted aquarium.

Mark, have you re-read the threads? they are entirely relevant.

The pure ammonia fishless cycle is highly successful and accepted right across the board.

No it isn't, it is a risky process that is always likely to fail and totally inappropriate for planted tanks.

I think thats incredibly arrogant of you, especially given the fact that every one of those threads were a request for advise.

Mark you requested advice, I and various other members of this forum ceg, BigTom, PlantBrain (who are much more skilled and successful fish keeper than I am) have taken the time to offer the best advice we can, which you have repeatedly ignored it.

I would recommend to any people viewing this thread to keep an open mind in their determination of how to set-up a planted aquarium.

So would I, I would recommend that Mark and any one else interested in this thread, read/re-read "Best Way To Start A Planted Tank?" <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=18200> from November 2011, so a year older, a year wiser might be an apposite saying.
I've put a relevant bit in below, Mark's quotes from earlier in the thread are in green

Hi all,
We've been down this route before including recently in the "other" thread <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=17590&p=180865>, but

Pretty much every fish-orientated forum heavily pushes running a fishless cycle with pure ammonia (or BioMature) - I did this with my last tank.

This is relevant to some degree for an un-planted tank, where all of the biological filtration, the process of converting NH3 - NO2 - NO3, is carried out in the filter media and the light is purely cosmetic, so that you can observe the fish. In this case, as well as ammonia, you need a lot of oxygen and a supply of carbonates. The idea is that the ammonia simulates a large fish load (ammonia continually diffuses out from the fishes gills into the tank water) and by maintaining high levels of ammonia over several weeks you can arrive at a cycled tank ready for a large fish load which you can (in fact need to) introduce in one big "hit".

You know when your tank is cycled by using test kits for NH3 - NO2 - NO3, illustrated in the graph below:

I won't comment on the efficiency of nitrogen test kits, and in this scenario you can only reduce NO3 levels by water changes, there is no easy mechanism for removing NO3 and more complicated methods using de-nitrifying coils, anaerobic plenums etc. have a chequered history.

This is a better method than the "sacrificial fish" method that preceded it, but it isn't really relevant to us, our tanks don't accumulate NO3, quite the opposite the growing plants deplete it. We also have evidence that many plants preferentially take up NH3 and NO2, and that the nitrogen cycle in the planted aquarium is much more complex than in the un-planted tank. A tank with healthily growing plants and water movement for gas exchange has enormous potential for biological filtration.

Will adding ammonia to the planted tank speed the cycling process up?
Almost certainly no, our tanks are never cycled in the way an un-planted tank would be' <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=14538&p=151055> but the combination of ammonia and light is likely to trigger algal growth as the levels of ammonia fall and become less toxic.

From the comments above, adding ammonia into a planted tank could be detrimental to plants. So going down this road means that you should leave putting any plants in until such time as your tank is cycled. This must mean that you need to fully plant your tank and immediately put fish in one after the other, as once the tank is planted you can no longer feed the bacteria in the filter thus need ammonia from a different source (a fishes bottom).

No, you plant the tank, and then leave it, once the plants are established you add the fish. I still add my fish in sequence over a couple of weeks, but this is probably over cautious. Have a look at my comments on this thread. <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=12800&p=140759>

Oh? The replies made to this topic seem to imply that doing a fishless cycle (by this i mean adding pure ammonia to the tank every 24/12 hours until 0 ppm of ammonia and 0 ppm of nitrite are recorded) would be the only way of being able to introduce a ram without harming it. I was actually under the impression that plants are not effective enough at removing ammonia and nitrite baring in mind that my planted tank would probably come up against issues to begin with (as stated in my first post) and bearing in mind I'd like to add a sensitive fish.

I think I've made my last comment on this thread, I don't know what else I can say other than:

plants are extremely effective at maintaining water quality, and this is true in almost any scenario.

cheers Darrel

 

[jack-rythm]

I know this is really not anything to do with me u guys but reading the last few posts referring to different posts etc is a really really good way for me to learn certain aspects.. so on that basis thanks I have been curious with this issue for some time as I have just set up 3 new tanks and have been debating the whole cycle scenario and which way to go.

cheers boys,... in a strange way

 

[mark4785]

I don't understand why you ask for advice, you have repeatedly ignored the advice given to you and now it has killed your fish, but you still continue with the same mantra.

I ask for advice so that I can add to my knowledge base. I in turn try to do the same for other people. Only difference, though, I don't try to ram it down their throats.

The community of fishforums.net have helped me to establish that the route cause of the deaths were caused by lack of o2 caused by a bacterium growth.

No they haven't, no it wasn't.

I'm afraid they have. I know it's unfortunate for you but you just need to learn to deal with it. Its the most fitting explanation, backed up with objective evidence.

Your viewpoint, in stark contrast, is fuelled by over-inflated smug and vicious ego and has no basis. Anybody reading the claim "Mark killed his fish because he didn't follow my and the team of elite's advice" will know that!

Ammonia diffuses from the gills of the fish all the time, you have put the fish into a system with no biological filtration capacity, ammonia levels of built up and killed your fish. Your lack of biological filtration is because you have been adding toxic levels of ammonia to your tank.

Thats absolute BS. You really do not have a clue as to the function and purpose of a fishless cycle do you? I'll give you a clue shall I? By the end of a fishless cycle, there is in existence of a colony of bacteria that reduce ammonia and nitrite levels. It's as simple as that!! I'm not sure what you've been reading but it sure is wrong to deduce that ammonia production from fish waste and gill expiration REMAINS in the water column AFTER a fishless cycle; truly the most absurd comment I've ever read concerning the cycle.

Mark you requested advice, I and various other members of this forum ceg, BigTom, PlantBrain (who are much more skilled and successful fish keeper than I am) have taken the time to offer the best advice we can, which you have repeatedly ignored it.

I addressed this issue above. I consider advice but it's not my fault that I take it with a pinch of salt nor is my omission to follow your advice the cause of the deaths of the fish. Your making that claim with substance that is not applicable to the circumstances in which I introduced the fish to the problem-aquarium.

The real problem that is behind the death of the fish is a harmful bacteria growing in the filter system and water column that is visibly identifiable (it resembles floating skin) and which is sucking all of the o2 out of the water column.

You can argue your hypothesis that I killed my fish by ammonia/nitrite poisoning to your blue in the face but it does not wash with a fish-keeper with 5 years experience of keeping healthy cold water and tropical fish. It's a real shame that yourself, with such intelligence and experience, have tuck to lashing out at me purely because I approach fish-keeping and tank preparation from a non-planted angle and in particularly, your doing it because you clearly know that the Ramirezi fish is prone to death prior to 3 years of age, the age at which they happen to die in my aquarium.

So would I, I would recommend that Mark and any one else interested in this thread, read/re-read "Best Way To Start A Planted Tank?" <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=18200>

Sorry but how can you say that when you make claims that there is no sufficiently biological capacity in an aquarium after conducting a fishless cycle? You couldn't possibly be anymore biased and incorrect.

This is relevant to some degree for an un-planted tank, where all of the biological filtration, the process of converting NH3 - NO2 - NO3, is carried out in the filter media and the light is purely cosmetic, so that you can observe the fish. In this case, as well as ammonia, you need a lot of oxygen and a supply of carbonates. The idea is that the ammonia simulates a large fish load (ammonia continually diffuses out from the fishes gills into the tank water) and by maintaining high levels of ammonia over several weeks you can arrive at a cycled tank ready for a large fish load which you can (in fact need to) introduce in one big "hit".

Exactly correct. Again, you've referenced quotes within threads without a fitting agenda to the issue at hand here. I fully endorse the fishless cycling method.

This is a better method than the "sacrificial fish" method that preceded it, but it isn't really relevant to us, our tanks don't accumulate NO3, quite the opposite the growing plants deplete it. We also have evidence that many plants preferentially take up NH3 and NO2, and that the nitrogen cycle in the planted aquarium is much more complex than in the un-planted tank. A tank with healthily growing plants and water movement for gas exchange has enormous potential for biological filtration.

I didn't sacrifice my fish. I don't know where you get your ideas from, I really don't! .

As for the claim that "healthily growing plants have enormous potential for biological filtration", I do not refute this. I prefer to go down the fishless cycle route as it is just has efficacious as the former. I've done the latter many times with success, and in this recent fishless cycle, that was too a success that was negated by an O2 issue of which has been caused by a bacteria I cannot identify in the water column and filters.

I think you ought to recognise that you too have not positively ID'd the issue and it's therefore very wrong for you to jump to conclusions, saying that an ammonia/nitrite spike was the definite cause of the death of the fish. I think it's fair to say that you have jumped to that conclusion because you do not have enough experience preparing aquariums by conducting fishless cycles and it's easier, for whatever reason, for you to blindly strike people down!

plants are extremely effective at maintaining water quality, and this is true in almost any scenario.

[/quote]

I would quit giving the impression that I refute this claim if I were you. You simply don't know how to address the question as to whether plants are effective, from the get-go, at maintaining water quality to a standard that allows the M.Ramirezi to thrive. Nor would I expect you to; the whole point of a PhpBB is to DISCUSS things, NOT come along and impose one's viewpoint has factual and binding on others.

 

[mark4785]

I know this is really not anything to do with me u guys but reading the last few posts referring to different posts etc is a really really good way for me to learn certain aspects.. so on that basis thanks I have been curious with this issue for some time as I have just set up 3 new tanks and have been debating the whole cycle scenario and which way to go.

cheers boys,... in a strange way

Well I'm glad somebody has the ability to have an open mind on here!

I think it's time to celebrate.

 

[mark4785]

Do as Matty1983 says, with the emphasis on oxygenating the water as much as possible - air pumped into a powerhead / koralia would be great, ensuring a nice fine mixing of air bubbles with the water + surface turbulence with the 'bubbling'. It's the sound you hear in an old school LFS

Without plants, maximising the oxygen available by mechanical means is an essential aspect to ensure fish health (even useful in a planted tank during night, or if you want higher CO2 during the day and still have happy fish). Cycling is as much about maintaining high oxygen as it is cultivating bacteria, the two go hand in hand. It's the 'biological oxygen demand' chestnut - the oxidisation of ammonia to nitrate severely depletes oxygen, so you need to provide more for any other occupants. You've measured the level yourself, and your hunch is that it's very low, hence take the measures suggested to get it to 8mg/l as per the other tank, with or without any other theories you wish to explore.

With much respect, I'm not sure it is the 'biological oxygen demand' chest nut as the tank is running as a planted aquarium (no pure ammonia dosing; although this has NEVER caused o2 depletion to this extent before) yet the o2 levels remain between 2 and 5 ppm.

See this thread for more details: http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/to ... try3440531

 

[roadmaster]

This weekend I purchased 5 Black Neon Tetras for a fully cycled open-top aquarium. Before going to purchase the fish I double checked that the ammonia, nitrite, PH and nitrate levels and temperature were all at suitable levels; they were all within range, as can be seen below:

Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 15 ppm
PH: 7.2
Temperature: 27 degrees C

I introduced the fish to the aquarium at 2:30pm and by 7:00pm, two of them had died and the rest were gasping for oxygen at the water surface. I didn't think that I had any sufficient reason to check the water o2 levels since the water's surface is rippling quite a bit allowing oxygen to enter the water column. In addition, although this aquarium will be a planted tank at some point in the future, there is no co2 injection at this point so this couldn't be the source of low oxygen diffusion. At 7:30pm I checked the o2 levels using a basic test kit and got a o2 reading of between 1-2 mg/l. In contrast, my established planted aquarium had a o2 reading of 8 mg/l.

I am really confused and upset that I've lost two of these fish and would therefore appreciate it if anybody has any explanation as to why oxygen levels in this newly cycled aquarium are horrendously low.

Note: the remaining 3 black neon tetras have been transferred to my planted aquarium and are not gasping/dying.

Fishes I have kept, did /do poorly with O2 levels below 5mg/L
I am not surprised that the fishes were gasping, or that they perished with O2 level's posted.

 

[roadmaster]

Its unlikely to be pH shock. Assuming you acclimatised them properly and didnt just dump them in. Whats your protocol for introducing new fish ? Also what are the dimensions of the tank ? What other fish and how many do you have in there already ?

When introducing new fish I acclimatise them for 30 minutes as I did today. The temperature and PH of the tank water and bag of water in which the fish are in (supplied by LFS) are consistent with one another by the end of the 30 minute period.

I don't know the dimensions but I know it holds 120 litres of water.

The tank was empty prior to placing the above mentioned fish in. I never introduce a huge bio-load into a newly established aquarium as I don't think its good practise. I was going to add more Tetras in a graduated fashion which I think is more safe.

Might consider drip acclimation,(easier on osmoregulatory function of fish) as this allow's water from tank to drip into bag, or bucket holding fish, assuming,,,
you add a little water from the tank at four or five minute interval's over a longer period than 30 minutes.
Thirty minutes in my view,,you may as well just dump the fish from the bag into the tank.

 

[roadmaster]

I don't understand why you ask for advice, you have repeatedly ignored the advice given to you and now it has killed your fish, but you still continue with the same mantra.

I ask for advice so that I can add to my knowledge base. I in turn try to do the same for other people. Only difference, though, I don't try to ram it down their throats.

The community of fishforums.net have helped me to establish that the route cause of the deaths were caused by lack of o2 caused by a bacterium growth.

No they haven't, no it wasn't.

I'm afraid they have. I know it's unfortunate for you but you just need to learn to deal with it. Its the most fitting explanation, backed up with objective evidence.

Your viewpoint, in stark contrast, is fuelled by over-inflated smug and vicious ego and has no basis. Anybody reading the claim "Mark killed his fish because he didn't follow my and the team of elite's advice" will know that!

Ammonia diffuses from the gills of the fish all the time, you have put the fish into a system with no biological filtration capacity, ammonia levels of built up and killed your fish. Your lack of biological filtration is because you have been adding toxic levels of ammonia to your tank.

Thats absolute BS. You really do not have a clue as to the function and purpose of a fishless cycle do you? I'll give you a clue shall I? By the end of a fishless cycle, there is in existence of a colony of bacteria that reduce ammonia and nitrite levels. It's as simple as that!! I'm not sure what you've been reading but it sure is wrong to deduce that ammonia production from fish waste and gill expiration REMAINS in the water column AFTER a fishless cycle; truly the most absurd comment I've ever read concerning the cycle.

Mark you requested advice, I and various other members of this forum ceg, BigTom, PlantBrain (who are much more skilled and successful fish keeper than I am) have taken the time to offer the best advice we can, which you have repeatedly ignored it.

I addressed this issue above. I consider advice but it's not my fault that I take it with a pinch of salt nor is my omission to follow your advice the cause of the deaths of the fish. Your making that claim with substance that is not applicable to the circumstances in which I introduced the fish to the problem-aquarium.

The real problem that is behind the death of the fish is a harmful bacteria growing in the filter system and water column that is visibly identifiable (it resembles floating skin) and which is sucking all of the o2 out of the water column.

You can argue your hypothesis that I killed my fish by ammonia/nitrite poisoning to your blue in the face but it does not wash with a fish-keeper with 5 years experience of keeping healthy cold water and tropical fish. It's a real shame that yourself, with such intelligence and experience, have tuck to lashing out at me purely because I approach fish-keeping and tank preparation from a non-planted angle and in particularly, your doing it because you clearly know that the Ramirezi fish is prone to death prior to 3 years of age, the age at which they happen to die in my aquarium.

So would I, I would recommend that Mark and any one else interested in this thread, read/re-read "Best Way To Start A Planted Tank?" <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=18200>

Sorry but how can you say that when you make claims that there is no sufficiently biological capacity in an aquarium after conducting a fishless cycle? You couldn't possibly be anymore biased and incorrect.

This is relevant to some degree for an un-planted tank, where all of the biological filtration, the process of converting NH3 - NO2 - NO3, is carried out in the filter media and the light is purely cosmetic, so that you can observe the fish. In this case, as well as ammonia, you need a lot of oxygen and a supply of carbonates. The idea is that the ammonia simulates a large fish load (ammonia continually diffuses out from the fishes gills into the tank water) and by maintaining high levels of ammonia over several weeks you can arrive at a cycled tank ready for a large fish load which you can (in fact need to) introduce in one big "hit".

Exactly correct. Again, you've referenced quotes within threads without a fitting agenda to the issue at hand here. I fully endorse the fishless cycling method.

This is a better method than the "sacrificial fish" method that preceded it, but it isn't really relevant to us, our tanks don't accumulate NO3, quite the opposite the growing plants deplete it. We also have evidence that many plants preferentially take up NH3 and NO2, and that the nitrogen cycle in the planted aquarium is much more complex than in the un-planted tank. A tank with healthily growing plants and water movement for gas exchange has enormous potential for biological filtration.

I didn't sacrifice my fish. I don't know where you get your ideas from, I really don't! .

As for the claim that "healthily growing plants have enormous potential for biological filtration", I do not refute this. I prefer to go down the fishless cycle route as it is just has efficacious as the former. I've done the latter many times with success, and in this recent fishless cycle, that was too a success that was negated by an O2 issue of which has been caused by a bacteria I cannot identify in the water column and filters.

I think you ought to recognise that you too have not positively ID'd the issue and it's therefore very wrong for you to jump to conclusions, saying that an ammonia/nitrite spike was the definite cause of the death of the fish. I think it's fair to say that you have jumped to that conclusion because you do not have enough experience preparing aquariums by conducting fishless cycles and it's easier, for whatever reason, for you to blindly strike people down!

plants are extremely effective at maintaining water quality, and this is true in almost any scenario.

I would quit giving the impression that I refute this claim if I were you. You simply don't know how to address the question as to whether plants are effective, from the get-go, at maintaining water quality to a standard that allows the M.Ramirezi to thrive. Nor would I expect you to; the whole point of a PhpBB is to DISCUSS things, NOT come along and impose one's viewpoint has factual and binding on others.[/quote]


Have read through this nauseating thread ,and think it wise to re-think the posistion that fishless cycling is just as effective as planting the tank with loads of plant's from the outset.
With plant's,,,there is no daily dosing of ammonia(should be reduced by 1/2 after nitrites appear),no daily testing to record number's and plant's are ten times quicker at assimilating ammonia than healthy bacterial colony will ever be.
Whether one chooses to believe it or not, does not change the fact that this is so.
Only proves that some are more stubborn (kind as I can be).
If there is some mycobacterium,Iridovirus,loose in the tank,,, However it got there... I might consider scrapping the whole lot and starting anew.
I have heard nothing in this thread but fact's ,and attempt's to help, being summarily dismissed at each opportunity.
Would/will, float my stick with the likes of those such as Darell, Tom, and other's here any day.

 

[tim]

Couple of questions if I may my local lfs always advises the fish less cycle but not once did they advise me to add ammonia so how would this work I have heard of them keeping customers waiting upto 4 months before stocking I don't think their intentions are bad they are just misguided better than the sacrificial fish IMO directed at mark why ask for advice when your mind seems pretty set mate personally I would not keep rams in anything other than a mature soft water aquarium due to the sensitive nature of this fish IMO down to the poor care of this fish from source it's far too colourful for its own good and prized by new and experienced fish keepers alike the most healthy specimens I've seen we're quite dull but raised by a local fish keeper to me in nothing other than a well planted tank and London tap water which is awful he admitted he'd been through more than a few pairs to raise fry mark I'm not trying to upset you but in my limited experience advice of the likes of darell big Tom and ceg is all that's kept me in the hobby