pipefish B&B

[Iain Sutherland]

That sounds cool, moss is quite high maintenance to keep looking good though, it really needs hovering a lot which may cause issues if the baby pipes hide in it?? Maybe branches of anubias nana and petite with some bolbitus for texture? Anubia roots dangling down look a bit prehistoric to me which could work with well with pipefish??? Just tossing ideas around mate, hope you dont mind... Im also getting great results with enchinodorus NZ low tech under the 11w... not as deep as this tank though. Sure it will be a cracker what ever you choose..

 

[Lindy]

Fantastic bit of wood and the fish are beautiful, just the kind of thing I'd go for if I had the skill,patience and time! Last time I saw pipefish was when snorkeling at Bon Island, Thailand. Brings back memories...

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

moss is quite high maintenance to keep looking good though, it really needs hovering a lot which may cause issues if the baby pipes hide in it??

I'd probably avoid hoovering the moss, as the biofilm that grows/collects on it will supply a lot of small food (like Rotifers) that are suitable fry food. I've had good success (including really small fry) using a combination of an oversized sponge, Java moss and a lot of dead leaves. When you can't see the fry, you squeeze the sponge out into the Java moss every couple of days (sponges are a great source of rotifers), and soon as you can see them, you start adding "Banana worms" or "Vinegar eels" (the Vinegar eels are best for more surface orientated fry like Betta spp.). The only thing you really need to watch out for is Planaria in the Java moss.

PM me if you want some Vinegar Eels or Banana worms, they are a fair bit smaller even than Micro Worms.

cheers Darrel

 

[sarahtermite]

This is really inspiring. It's very honest of you to catalogue the whole process, warts and all, so that we can all learn. I have no doubt their final home will be fabulous! And I rather like it when you can't see the fish 100% of the time - makes you appreciate it all the more when you do.

 

[killi69]

Maybe branches of anubias nana and petite with some bolbitus for texture? Anubias roots dangling down look a bit prehistoric to me which could work with well with pipefish??? Just tossing ideas around mate, hope you dont mind... Im also getting great results with enchinodorus NZ low tech under the 11w... not as deep as this tank though. Sure it will be a cracker what ever you choose..

Hi Iain, no I do not mind at all, your feedback and ideas are very useful and always welcome! Quite like your anubias and hanging roots idea. I was thinking about those mini java ferns like the ones I ordered from Germany for in my main tank - they develop hanging roots also - see pic from my tank;

What does echinodorus NZ look like, is it a form of tenellus?

moss is quite high maintenance to keep looking good though, it really needs hovering a lot which may cause issues if the baby pipes hide in it??

I'd probably avoid hoovering the moss, as the biofilm that grows/collects on it will supply a lot of small food (like Rotifers) that are suitable fry food. I've had good success (including really small fry) using a combination of an oversized sponge, Java moss and a lot of dead leaves. When you can't see the fry, you squeeze the sponge out into the Java moss every couple of days (sponges are a great source of rotifers), and soon as you can see them, you start adding "Banana worms" or "Vinegar eels" (the Vinegar eels are best for more surface orientated fry like Betta spp.). The only thing you really need to watch out for is Planaria in the Java moss.

You are right, I would definitely need to be very careful with the moss. In addition, I would also need to give it a trim every now and then which could be tricky! Thanks for your ideas Darrell. Ghostsword had suggested something similar to me a while back - he said I could use some loose bits of wood, cover them with moss and place them in a container where lots of rotifers etc live and swap them back into the pipefish tank to introduce micro foods to them that way. Your ideas of using leaves and sponge filter also sound very interesting. I was thinking about keeping the crate going as a nursery once the pipefish tank is ready and create an environment rich in micro organisms to place any future pipefish fry (touch wood) in to grow on.

PM me if you want some Vinegar Eels or Banana worms, they are a fair bit smaller even than Micro Worms.

Thanks so much Darrell, I will let you know if I need any. Just conscious of the time involved in keeping all these cultures going. I might well take you up on the vinegar eals, as they don't really take any time to maintain from what I remember.

Fantastic bit of wood and the fish are beautiful, just the kind of thing I'd go for if I had the skill,patience and time! Last time I saw pipefish was when snorkeling at Bon Island, Thailand. Brings back memories...

Cheers IDC, swimming with the pipefish sounds amazing!!

This is really inspiring. It's very honest of you to catalogue the whole process, warts and all, so that we can all learn. I have no doubt their final home will be fabulous! And I rather like it when you can't see the fish 100% of the time - makes you appreciate it all the more when you do.

Hi Sarah. Thanks for the feedback. I fully agree with you. Much of what I have learnt about these fish -and most of what I have learnt about planted tanks- comes through reading other people's experiences in forums. Unfortunately I have some sharing of bad news to do...

 

[Iain Sutherland]

What does echinodorus NZ look like, is it a form of tenellus?

its a very similar just a little wider, i tried tennelus low tech but it didnt go as well for me. Ian H has it in his 'under the mangrove tree'.

Unfortunately I have some sharing of bad news to do...

oh no.....

 

[killi69]

Well, I went to pick up the pipefish from my friend’s house today and I am very sorry to say that I have lost all but one of the baby pipefish .

I am off course very grateful to my friend for all the work involved in handling and feeding live foods, setting up daily brineshrimp cultures etc and know that keeping the pipefish adults alive for two weeks is an achievement in itself. Nevertheless, this is very disappointing for me.

I do not know what happened. As I already mentioned, I killed two babies by sucking them up a pipette (turkey baster) sideways. They were difficult to catch and I stressed a few others out by sucking them up tail first. It is amazing how fast and for how long they could swim against the current but this would certainly not have helped either. At least I know for the future; baby pipefish need to be caught head first into the pipette.

I think other likely causes of the casualties might be overfeeding of brineshrimp in combination of lack of water change when necessary. Also, when I brought the tank water to take to my friend’s, I included all the mulm that had collected on the bottom of the crate, thinking this might contain micro organisms that might provide a source of food. In hindsight, this mulm might have contributed to any water quality issues, that may or may not have played a part in this. Gutted!!! Holiday times clearly present a major risk.

Anyway, on the positive side, at least there is one survivor, which seems to have grown well.

The pipefish family have all settled back in to their West London location again and all, including baby, seem happy. Not that I expect to see the baby for a while. I have put a load more ferns into their crate, as well as some java moss, in the hope to improve chances for the little one. There is so much vegetation in there now, it will be really hard to try and find the baby, hopefully he will come and show himself again soon.

I was doing some more research today and came across some information on http://fish.mongabay.com/species/Enneacampus_ansorgii.html;

The female spawns above the the males brooding pouch. The eggs stick to his anal opening are covered by two lateral folds which form the sac. The eggs remain in the male's pouch for several months.
Breeding has been accomplished accidentally thus far.

I also found some very interesting factsheets produced by Aqualog about pipefish;
http://www.aqualog.de/Aqualog/news/web90/Seite11-13e.pdf
http://www.aqualog.de/Aqualog/news/web92/Seite16-19e.pdf

Nevertheless their successful maintenance and breeding is possible even for beginners in the aquarium hobby, as long as they are prepared to cater for the very special requirements of these fishes.
...
[on Enneacampus ansorgii] This gorgeous little (8–12 cm) freshwater pipefish is the species most commonly available in the hobby, no doubt because it is produced by commercial breeders.

The reason for sharing this is that I am now thinking... when were my babies conceived?? WHO IS THE FATHER?? Or rather... who is the mother?! According to the first website quoted ‘the eggs remain in the male’s pouch for several months’. It would be nice to think that the pipefish bred in my tank. As they were born ten weeks after purchase, this is still very possible. But I have to admit, it could have all been an accident and the male was pregnant when I bought him.

Still, it is good to know that breeding of these creatures has been achieved in captivity and even better that the majority of this particular species of pipefish offered in LFSs seem to have been commercially bred. I really do not like the idea of wild caught fish filling the tanks at LFSs, especially those that can bred instead or those, like pipefish, that are very delicate and perish easily.

Fingers crossed the little one will survive and I still hold a little hope that MAYBE more might follow one day...

 

[foxfish]

Fantastic story, the pipe fish could of so easily gone to the wrong home but you not only saved them but made them parents!
These fish obviously need special conditions & dedicated treatment that few people would be able to offer - very well done & good luck breeding some more.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Micro/Banana worms are pretty low maintenance, and as you suggest Vinegar Eels are no maintenance. I've started harvesting the "Eels" using the "filter floss" method <Untitled Document>, and that works really well.

Ghostsword had suggested something similar to me a while back - he said I could use some loose bits of wood, cover them with moss and place them in a container where lots of rotifers etc live and swap them back into the pipefish tank to introduce micro foods to them that way. Your ideas of using leaves and sponge filter also sound very interesting.

It really works, I was using the "Java Moss method" for Ram fry (after a thread on a Killi Forum) and I noticed that as well as shrimps and Otocinclus that Pygmy Cories and Apistogramma fry spent a lot of their time on the dead leaves. I've got both Corydoras hastatus and C. pygmaeus fry in the lab tank <Water Lettuce and it's impact on my tank | UK Aquatic Plant Society> at the moment, and they were already quite big by the time I found them, so I hadn't fed any specific "fry food". (I'll try and get a photo of the smaller C. hastatus fry, as they are incredibly cute).

cheers Darrel

 

[nayr88]

You've done a great job mate, really put yourself out there.

Cheers for that DW good little read and defo something to do in the future when I have a fish occupied tank.

I had your wingless fruit flies for ages and ages, really encouraged my apisto's to venture up to the surface of the tank.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Fantastic story, the pipe fish could of so easily gone to the wrong home but you not only saved them but made them parents! These fish obviously need special conditions & dedicated treatment that few people would be able to offer - very well done & good luck breeding some more.

Yes best of luck with them, you've put in the "hard yards", so I hope you are successful (and don't see why you shouldn't be).

I had your wingless fruit flies for ages and ages, really encouraged my apisto's to venture up to the surface of the tank.

I got them from "Chris1004" on UKAPS originally, but I'm not sure he is still on the forum. I've still got the cultures going if you want some more? I'm down to my last Marbled Hatchets, but I I'll keep them going.

Cheers for that DW good little read and defo something to do in the future when I have a fish occupied tank.

A few other people have been experimenting with leaves as a food (either directly or to produce micro-organisms)
This is one on "Planet Catfish".
<http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34911&p=235958&hilit=leaf+litter+food#p235958>

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I got some pretty poor pictures of the Corydoras hastatus fry, so I'll hide them in this thread rather than putting them in their own thread. I've got at least 4 of this really small ones, and at least one similarly sized Corydoras pygmaeus fry.

They are in there honestly, 2 of them right in the middle of the photo.

He is a close-up of my dirty glass, and no he hasn't eaten them.

cheers Darrel

 

[killi69]

Fantastic story, the pipe fish could of so easily gone to the wrong home but you not only saved them but made them parents! These fish obviously need special conditions & dedicated treatment that few people would be able to offer - very well done & good luck breeding some more.

You've done a great job mate, really put yourself out there.

Yes best of luck with them, you've put in the "hard yards", so I hope you are successful (and don't see why you shouldn't be).

Thank you very much Foxfish, Darrel and nayr88. I really hope I can share more good news some time.

I was using the "Java Moss method" for Ram fry (after a thread on a Killi Forum) and I noticed that as well as shrimps and Otocinclus that Pygmy Cories and Apistogramma fry spent a lot of their time on the dead leaves. I've got both Corydoras hastatus and C. pygmaeus fry in the lab tank <Water Lettuce and it's impact on my tank | UK Aquatic Plant Society> at the moment, and they were already quite big by the time I found them, so I hadn't fed any specific "fry food". (I'll try and get a photo of the smaller C. hastatus fry, as they are incredibly cute).

A few other people have been experimenting with leaves as a food (either directly or to produce micro-organisms) This is one on "Planet Catfish". <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34911&p=235958&hilit=leaf+litter+food#p235958>

Great stuff. Do the leaves impact water quality at all?

Hi all, I got some pretty poor pictures of the Corydoras hastatus fry, so I'll hide them in this thread rather than putting them in their own thread. I've got at least 4 of this really small ones, and at least one similarly sized Corydoras pygmaeus fry.

Nice one Darrel, thanks for sharing this. They must have been tiny as fry!

 

[killi69]

Miracle! I managed to spot my baby pipefish this morning;

Seems to have grown again

Nice pattern on top as well. Should I be worried about him being trapped inside the heater casing when heater comes on? The casing provides good protection for the adults. Should I cover the casing with something - stocking? Or am I being paranoid??

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Should I be worried about him being trapped inside the heater casing when heater comes on? The casing provides good protection for the adults. Should I cover the casing with something - stocking? Or am I being paranoid??

No, I think it is a genuine concern. Could you provide the fish with alternative "caves"? Bamboo canes come to mind straight away.

Great stuff. Do the leaves impact water quality at all?

Not in practice, theoretically they will, but because the leaves were dead, the tree had already withdrawn all the carbohydrates (both sugars and starch) and protein (mainly as chlorophyll) from them. What's left are secondary metabolites like tannins and the structural carbohydrates like cellulose and lignin, which are difficult to degrade. Because the leaves are only degraded slowly they add very little Biochemical Oxygen Demand (BOD) to the water.

Have a look at this fantastic article on dead leaves by Colin Dunlop. I've never met him, although I think that other members (BigTom?) know him (Colin may actually be a member of UKAPS?), and he is a famous name in fish-breeding circles < All the leaves are brown… — Seriously Fish>.

I use the reduction of BOD concept for all my tank water management, so rather than saying something is "good" or "bad", you look at each item in terms of what nutrients it contains, how readily available they are, and how much effect it will have on BOD.

cheers Darrel

 

[killi69]

Thanks Darrel, the link is really useful. Just got to find some suitable leaves.

Good advice also about being careful with the heater injuring the fry. I will need to address this and hopefully it is not too late for the remaining baby... There is, I think, already ample cover in the tank with lots of clumps of ferns which fry could hide in or under. I am thinking about using a bit of stocking to tie over the entire heater element. I imagine that the casing would prevent the stocking from touching the hot glass on the heater and causing it to melt. The thing I am a bit cautious about is whether the stocking will leach any chemicals into the water. I know a lot of people use stocking in filter chambers to hold products like Purigen, but I was wondering whether I need to be careful having stocking material submerged in such a small volume of water?

 

[sanj]

I want Pipefish!

 

[killi69]

I went to feed my pipefish this morning and I noticed something amazing.

EGGS!!! I counted seven of them, just below the head of one of the pipefish in the corner.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------eggs above here
After a couple of minutes, the pipefish slowly made off

and snails moved in...

... and soon the eggs were gone.

As the males keep the eggs in their breeding pouch until the fry are released, I did not bother to try to save any of them. Here is a picture of one of the eggs close-up;

The fact that the eggs disappeared so fast indicates that they must have only just appeared. I can’t believe I just missed the mating, if only I had been there earlier I might have seen it all happen. Disappointed that the mating had failed but encouraged by the fact that the pipefish are happy enough in their environment to breed, I went online to find out more about the mating process and confirm that the eggs I found were indeed pipefish eggs.

I came across this Japanese website; http://otosuki.s96.xrea.com/af_pipefish/pipe_tamago/af_pipe_tamago.html which graphically illustrates the whole process. It is the best photographic documentation I have come across so far and is a very informative and entertaining read. Having missed the mating, finding these pictures was the next best thing;

female right, male left

eggs starting to come out

eggs released and handover to male – female left, male right

close-up

a number of eggs missed the brood pouch and fell; the author counted 16 eggs that fell;

orange eggs between 0.8 and 0.9mm in diameter!!!

This is so exciting; not only is the above confirmation that the eggs I found were pipefish eggs – better still; they could well be the spill over from a successful mating attempt!

I am still not sure how long it takes for the eggs to develop inside the male but I am on the look-out and will keep you all posted!

 

[Gill]

Congrats on keeping these amazing fish, they are a joy to watch. And wow babies aswell, so lucky.
I agree that they are a challenge indeed, but once settled and with regular food they will do great.
I have also found that they Devour Glassworms with vigour, And Your choice of live food is the best on the market.
Thinking of keeping these in the future once live foods are stable and in large quantities.

 

[BigTom]

Have a look at this fantastic article on dead leaves by Colin Dunlop. I've never met him, although I think that other members (BigTom?) know him (Colin may actually be a member of UKAPS?), and he is a famous name in fish-breeding circles < All the leaves are brown… — Seriously Fish>.

Yeah Colin knows his fish. Really nice guy, lives about an hour from me. He's not on here but posts a bit on SF and BCA.

Great job getting the pipefish breeding again. This is another group that are very high on my must have list for when I'm a bit more settled, so watching this thread with great interest!