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Should I start again?

Bertie

Member
Joined
18 Apr 2013
Messages
489
Hi all,
Apologies for what may be a long post.

Tank (as of today). Tank has been running for 6 months.
Rio 180 with 160 litres with 6-8mm gravel.(did not intend for live plants when setup)
Eheim Pro3 250 External Filter at 950lph, New Wave 1.6 Circulation Pump at 800lph and a small cheap submersible pump at 200lph
2 x 45w T5 Tubes on for 8hrs a day.
Pressurised CO2 at 3bps
5ml daily of a "complete" fertilizer and 4ml of Liquid CO2
Change 50% water weekly.

I must at this point, say that I have had good advice from this forum, although nothing seems to work for me. (maybe my impatience).

History of my Tank.

I initially set up the tank without live plants so I had fake plants and rocks basically, with just the Juwel Internal filter.

Quite quickly the tank suffered from brown algae and, very shortly afterwards, from serious BBA. The stuff was, to me anyway, everywhere. I initially cut the lighting down to 6hrs per day and took out all of the decor etc and gave it all a good scrubbing and replaced. I also removed the internal filter and replaced it with an Eheim Pro 3 250. Over a few weeks the brown algae receded and the gravel appeared fine.

I was however no longer happy with the fake plants and started to add plants..Initially, Vallis, Cabomba and the like. The cabomba,especially was a disaster with bits everywhere, so I quickly pulled it out. I added some crypts and swords, moss balls and other bits and bobs. I started feeding a fert recommended for tanks that did not use CO2. I also started dosing with 3ml daily of liquid CO2.

I kept adding plants and kept on getting small attacks of bba, so on advice I started adding "complete" fertilizer and upped the liquid CO2 gradually to 5ml daily. Everything settled down and I increased the lighting period back to 8hrs per day.

I was happy with the tank and all looked well, until the plants seemed to stop growing, or dramatically slowed down. I managed to talk my wife into allowing me pressurised CO2 and I also bought 2 light reflectors. I did have problems getting the bps right, going up quite high at one time. In a short space of time I had more bba and brown algae on the gravel.

On advice, I removed the reflectors, upped the fert dosage, and altered the flow of the powerhead, and, at first the bba and brown algae seemed to recede,in fact the bba started to turn red, and I gave the plants a good haircut to remove the blackened leaves.But the bba persists.

I made a DIY long spraybar for the back of the tank but the result was not good so I placed the supplied eheim spraybar back along the side of the tank. At the same time I re-positioned the powerheads and the flow is a lot better enabling me to reduce the bps to 3.

But I feel I am losing the battle. The bba is still here,as is the brown or olive algae on the gravel, and the plants look straggly, and most appear not to be growing too well, new growth is pale to yellow and some even look "torn". The plants that seem to be doing very well are the Java Fern. Most of the rest of the plants look "dirty" and not very nice. My water is crystal clear and the fish appear very healthy.

Therefore should I pull up all the plants and start again? I feel that I should start over and replace the substrate,plants etc. The trouble with that is that I do not have anywhere to house the fish whilst that is done, as it would take a while, due to my health. I also do not know whether the other half would fund it.:eek:
Or would cutting the plants right back help? Or maybe I am not cut out for growing plants in a fish tank!! I certainly do not have problems with my hanging baskets.:D

Sorry about the rambling on, but it has started to get me down.
I should add that I have now resorted to adding AlgExit. I know it is not the answer but just trying to make the tank look better at the moment.

My son just does a 3 bucket water change a week, throws 5ml of a "lite" fert in and his plants are regularly reaching the top of the tank!!
 
Firstly there's no such thing as and algae free tank,if its not visible its there. Is you tank near a window?I'm woundering if your flow around the tanks is good , your have quite a bit of light there for 160 ltrs. I only have 48watts in total for 220. Ltr cube 60 cm deep. I may be wrong but I don't think you need the easy carb realy running co2 at 3 bps. I'd put more hungry cheap fast growing plants in put the drop checker in the area that's the slowest flow /least bubbles from diffuser to check if it getting to all plant and diffused. To put it short I'd say not enough co2 circulating insufficient water changes and maybe too much light. I change 20 gallon per week. Another thing you could try is the jbl 7+13 rootballs pushed into the gravel they have improved our tank a lot. .:). Don't give up these thing happen. If you are going to start again or anyone else need fine gravel, aldi are selling some nice greyish fine stuff suitable for ponds it says on the bags at 2 sqid a bag you could wash and mix this with your 6-8 ml or put it over the top if your not fussy. I'm going to grab a few bags and store for next time or the next tank :)
 
Hi kap k, thanks for the info....I should have said that I change 50% water weekly. I have altered the powerheads and the flow seems to be getting everywhere but will continue to place the drop checker in different areas. Yes the light is quite a bit but the lights with a Juwel are "as is" I suppose I could go for different type of the same 45w tubes? A different light set up such as hanging lights are not an optional financially at the moment. I will have a look at the rootballs and will certainly look again at some more cheap stem plants but unfortunately our lfs does not have much when I visit. Thanks again.
 
When you say power head your not using under gravel filtration are you?. :) you could take a bulb out and leave the light hours the same? I'd wait for some more replies before doing anything as I could be way off.
 
No I use an Eheim External Canister for filtration. You cannot remove a tube in a Juwel tank as it will only work with two good tubes...if one tube fails, both go off. The light tubes for Juwel are "Juwel specific".
 
Hello,
Ripping everything out and starting again will gain you absolutely nothing. You have to learn how to fix this problem because when you start again you will simply make the same mistakes. Also, you cannot compare one tank to another. The other tank you mention has nothing to do with the tank having the problems. Each tank has a different set of issues because the lighting, the flow as well as the nutrition is all different from tank to tank.

The first thing you need to do when facing an algal bloom is to reduce the light intensity. I assume, from other threads, that Juwel lighting does not permit the disabling of one of the bulbs, so you can temporarily insert cheesecloth or other form of obfuscation between the light and the tank. That will reduce the lighting stress and will help you to solve the problem.

BBA is CO2 issue. You have to fix your CO2 and you have to remove the BBA that is in the tank. When you added more plants, you not only added more mouths than needed to be fed CO2, but you also started to block flow. As the plants grow, more mass, both above and below the substrate require more CO2.

If you have the time, you should increase the frequency and the amount of your water change as much as possible. That will help to remove spores as well as to clean the tank.

You can also increase the daily dosing of your liquid carbon until you see the BBA turn pink, then remove it.

Slowly increase the bubble rate and make sure that the DC is lime green when the light turn on. It's not clear if you are using an air pump (which you should not be doing) or if you are agitating the surface to much, but if you are then make sure the pump is off when the CO2 is on and make sure that the surface of the water only has ripples and that the agitation does not break the surface.

It's also not clear how you have set up the combination of filter outlets and powerheads. They should all be mounted on the same wall and should all be pointed in the same direction. It's not clear how you are dissolving the CO2 but you can try porting the gas directly into the filter inlet by placing the diffuser under the inlet.

Take pH readings at 1 hour intervals starting 1 hour prior to lights on until lights off and report the measurements so we can see how well the gas is being dissolved.

Cheers,
 
Hi, Thanks for that,,,I will do what you suggest..the powerheads are on the same wall and facing the same direction. Also I will connect one of the reflectors and turn it upwards so it will diffuse the light,and I will start my ph readings in the morning before lights on. Thanks again.
 
Ripping everything out and starting again will gain you absolutely nothing. You have to learn how to fix this problem because when you start again you will simply make the same mistakes.

I agree with Cleg - if you break the tank down and start again you will come across the same problems, and maybe some new ones too! When I started out I broke down my tank 3 times and learnt nothing. Eventually I resolved to keep with it and looked at it as a long term project. I found out what worked for me through trial and error over a long period of time and gradually my tank improved and I learnt how to 'fix' stuff. You have the added bonus of a forum to help you through these 'tough' times. Stick with it - maybe start a journal on this forum and keep it updated so that you can have a long-term thread and not have to keep posting short term stuff (if that makes sense). Loads of people here have been through the same as you and just look at their tanks now!
 
Chin up Bertie, don't give up mate it's all part of the fun;) I know how frustrating it can be and not all of us have the spare cash to throw at it at times too but there are ways round it and so much help on here it's unbelievable.
I too am struggling and fighting to keep my tank, water and plants healthy, through many people on here I've taken on board so much great advice, and kept going. I think I know my tanks reason for my algae and am trying to rectify it, New filter arriving this week will be a start:) but I'll need another one too and possibly a better method of diffusing co2 etc, so for me to get to the promised land of a truly healthy planted tank I can be proud of is going to take me a while to save etc. However, I have a long term plan, a goal to reach and am currently doing at least 2 * 50% water changes week so things at least get no worse until I get my first New filter. I've been doing this for 3 months mate so don't give in, get at it, someone told me one thing which has stuck, there's never a bad time to do a water change, I should start a journal too, more good advice.
ceg4048 knows his beans Bertie, get your PH readings done and I'm sure you'll be pointed to step 2B-)
good luck with it and keep going
 
Thanks to all. I did not do my ph yesterday as I had a slight emergency. I will take my ph readings today and then post them here.
 
Hi All.
Here are my PH readings. The CO2 starts at 9am 3 hours before lights on at 12pm. It started at 3 bps.

11am...1 hr before lights on: ph = 7.2

12pm 6.8 to 7 (difficult to tell difference)

1pm 6.8 ......I then increased bps.

2pm 6.6

3pm 6.6

4pm 6.6

5pm 6.6 The drop checker is showing green yellow.

6pm 6.6 The CO2 goes off....the drop checker is more yellow than green and a few fish are hanging. My dwarf rainbows,some tiger barbs and some other rainbow fishes. However they do not look particularly stressed out with it.
The lights go off at 8pm.
 
Hi Bertie,
This is the typical dilemma of CO2 injected tanks. Ideally, you'd want that 6.6 value to occur at lights on, as well as the DC color green/yellow. If you can achieve that, then you can turn the gas off at 3PM or 4PM (or even earlier) and allow the residual gas in the water to feed the plants until lights off.

To accomplish that you'd have to increase the injection rate and shorten the amount of time the gas goes on prior to lights on. This means that you generate a higher gas saturation, and that you accomplish it sooner. Then, to reduce toxicity the gas gets turned off earlier and the water retains the gas saturation.

When tanks suffer CO2 related problems, even though they are injecting CO2, usually it's because their timing of the gas is faulty. CO2 is Super-Mega Important at lights on. It's the most important time for CO2. If you mess this part up, the plants suffer, even though latter in the day the CO2 is high. That's because the plants miss their breakfast and that absolutely ruins their day. During the second half of the photoperiod they really don't uptake as much CO2, and so the gas concentration level is much less important.

So in a way, it's kind of like wearing your shirt inside out. It's very difficult to master CO2. I would say it's the most difficult skill to become adept at in this hobby, so try not to be too discouraged.

Cheers,
 
Hi ceg4048,
Thanks for that...As, after increasing my bps I achieved the 6.6, I will check closely again today and if it is not 6.6 and the DC is not green/yellow at lights on, I will increase bps again until I achieve 6.6 at lights on. When that is achieved I will adjust timing until I do get it right!!
Thanks very much for your help. Appreciate everyones help. I will get there!!!!
 
Well the ph at lights on today was 6.6 and the DC was a nice lime green....now I have to keep an eye on the fish,adjust timings, and hope that everything else follows and gets sorted....think I have to sort my fert dosage out as I think I am dosing too much at the moment, but a bit of trial and error should sort it!
 
Dosing too much is not really something you should worry about unless cost is an issue. I'd advise to forget about pursuing this course for now because you are likely to cause more problems than you solve. Adding more CO2 as you are now doing results in the need to add more nutrients, so really I would not mess with the nutrient loading right now. Fixing your CO2 without killing your fish is priority number 1. Everything else is secondary. There is seldom a penalty for dosing too much.

Remember, depending on your flow, distribution, water temperature and lighting, you may need to increase the bubble rate even more so that the pH drops even more.

The BBA that is present has to be forcibly evicted from the tank. It will not go away just because you improved the CO2. This means a lot of elbow grease in cutting the affected leaves and scrubbing the hardscape where it appears. During a massive water change, drop the level of the water to expose the hardscape, dip a toothbrush in Excel and use the brush to scrub the tufts away. This will take a few weeks to clear.

Cheers,
 
Thanks again ceg.....I have a water change tomorrow when I do it about 5am :D So will make a start tomorrow morning bright and early. I cut out 99% of the black plant leaves earlier in the week. I have a small amount of gravel affected and have a go at some of that as well. You have given me hope of seeing light at the other end of the tunnel.
Thanks again.
 
I will most likely be still dreaming at 5AM. It has been determined that a 5AM water change is uncivilized.
Believe it or not, it would actually be better to do the water change at or around lights on. Not only do you get more beauty sleep, but there are some tangible CO2 benefits when you drop the water level and expose the plants to air. They may not hold the extra CO2 for the 6 hours until lights on if you do the water change that early.

Cheers,
 
oops! I only remembered about the lighting today. I have used a reflector turned up the wrong way to diffuse the light at the front. It seems very dark with just the one T5 45w tube working. I hope my plants will be ok although I fully understand that growth will probably slow (although there is not a lot of growth at the moment).
 
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