• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

Should I fishless cycle a new planted tank?

The only downside with a silent cycle in my opinion is that you can be unlucky enough like me to start with plants that are half dead from transport and were probably grown emmersed prior. You'll be waiting ages to get them established and possibly get covered in algae while doing so.
Other than that I agree that one should spend the time getting the plants to grow, then the rest will resolve itself and for that amount of time the filter will get some bacteria established too from melting plants, bacteria, possibly substrate/soil leaching ammonia etc..If a person is good at growing plants, then it's a nice way to start a tank and probably more pleasurable too compared to a fishless cycle.

But I've done many fishless cycles with ammonia and it works, 3 weeks on average, simples. If one has no lights during that period there's no algae but I've done it with plants and ligtht too a few times ( even slow growers too), adding ammonia daily, and never got the "weird algae" some people mention. All I got was minor diatoms sometimes that the fish ate as soon as they were put in afterwards. I kept one of these tanks documented and have pictures pre-cycle and after cycling with ammonia, mostly an anubias tank. The tank didn't get any sort of algae for the initial 10 months after setup but then I messed up with other stuff so triggered some algae at some stage which I doubt it was due to me adding ammonia 10 months beforehand :) So I wouldn't condemn this method so easily. Ammonia is toxic, but in a fishless cycle dosed to proper amounts it has no side effects. It is as good as any other method of cycling a tank and once done, your tank is ready for fish regardless of whether the plants melt or not because the amount of bacteria that gets established via ammonia dosing is normally a lot more than the tank inhabitants/melting plants/decomposition, etc,.. will produce, making it qute safe for inhabitans even if one isn't such a good gardener.

And I don't agree with using "hardy" fish for any cycle. They'd suffer as much as any other species and who wants fish on the verge of getting diseased? "Hardy" fish may survive the worst, but their weakened immune system won't work well for ages, may get easily infected by a common pathogen and your journey with fish will be rough and unpleasant. It can take many months getting tank stock back to a healthy condition. It may require medication which will totally destroy the biological balance of the tank, etc...

So it's one's choice what to do as long as they know what they are capable of and how much time they have on hand.
 
Here are some pictures of one of my tanks that was planted, then cycled with ammonia for about 3 weeks. It was planted with anubias mainly, so not even the best plants to establish a planted tank with considering they are slow growers and get infested with algae easily.


The pictures below show exactly the same side of the tank. The first picture is just after planting and filling before cycling with ammonia.

p1130631j.jpg


The cycle finished. I added fish. The corys decided to spawn and I was taking a picture of the eggs deposited on the intakes but you can see the state of the same plant.
p2110921.jpg




And a close up video on which you can see the same plant from a close view 10 months later, still no algae in the tank or any dead or sick fish for that matter and still going strong after a year and a half. The corys loved(still love) spawning in that corner but they seem to be colour blind as you can see on the video :)

 
foxfish said:
The dry start method is when the tank is set up & cycled with substrate, hard scape & plants but no water - so obviously no fish either but also no algae!
I can hardly believe some guys actually add household ammonia to there tanks :confused:
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with household ammonia as long as its pure with no additives, i use jeyes..
 
Putting plants in, adding mature media or even adding ammonia are all just methods to start the tank processing its own ammonia. Some walstad tanks are filtered by the plants and substrate alone and fish arnt added till later, when its safe to do so. Some people like fish in to help with algae till the tanks more mature
I wouldnt condemn an method of cycling aslong as livestock are not exposed to unaceptable water quality. People have different personal preferences and tanks have different requirments
Do what suits you and your tanks requirements
 
foxfish said:
Adjusting & playing around with Co2 levels is not recommended with anything other than plants in the tank.
Click to expand...

My next tank is going to be my first high tech and I'll not be cycling it with fish for the reasons Mr. Foxfish said above. Take your time and get the environment right before adding fish. You'll be glad you did.
 
If OP is intending to add sensitive fish to the aquarium I would definitely recommend he perform a fishless cycle before adding plants. In my opinion, you could only get away with adding fish to a non-cycled planted aquarium if the the aquarium was filled with plants that uptake nitrogen compounds very quickly, the owner of the aquarium is able to confidently grow plants without any die back, the tank is slightly stocked with hardy species of fish and these fish are not over-fed.

The trouble with having no nitrifying bacteria is when you decide to remove plants (for whatever reason) the fish will suffer and/or die which is a completely unavoidable outcome if a simple fishless cycle was completed initially.
 
mark4785 said:
If OP is intending to add sensitive fish to the aquarium I would definitely recommend he perform a fishless cycle before adding plants. In my opinion, you could only get away with adding fish to a non-cycled planted aquarium if the the aquarium was filled with plants that uptake nitrogen compounds very quickly, the owner of the aquarium is able to confidently grow plants without any die back, the tank is slightly stocked with hardy species of fish and these fish are not over-fed.

The trouble with having no nitrifying bacteria is when you decide to remove plants (for whatever reason) the fish will suffer and/or die which is a completely unavoidable outcome if a simple fishless cycle was completed initially.
Click to expand...

This makes no sense whatsoever but I decided a while ago that it isn't worth entering into debate with Mark, so I'll simply recommend to the OP that he takes this particular piece of advice with a pinch of salt and makes his own mind up with the information he's been provided with in this thread and in the many others on the topic.
 
BigTom said:
This makes no sense whatsoever but I decided a while ago that it isn't worth entering into debate with Mark, so I'll simply recommend to the OP that he takes this particular piece of advice with a pinch of salt and makes his own mind up with the information he's been provided with in this thread and in the many others on the topic.
Click to expand...

I would recommend that the OP takes your advice, BigTom, and my advice, along with any pieces of information provided within this thread, with the same degree of gravity otherwise you risk sounding arrogant and insultive insinuating that your own views hold more weight.
 
I obviously am a supporter of fishless cycling having done it many times.
There's a point in having cycled filters one way or another even for a planted tank as you'll have less headaches with initial algae outbreaks when there's already bacteria in the filters to deal with the ammonia spikes.
And your substrate will establish beneficial bacteria way faster too, for the plants to grow properly.

I just don't see why is a planted tank made look like such a magical way of cycling a tank when in fact there's no much difference than a fish-in cycle, besides the plants helping with the ammonia too making it finish faster but you won't escape the initial major water changes.
And from what I gather, it's still advised to wait a few week in a planted tank before stocking it, so it isn't any different than what one would do in a fishless cycle, with that difference that in a fishless cycle you know exactly when it's done and how many fish you can stock with.

And for those that keep coming up with ammonia being toxic and not supposed to be added to tanks, then stop adding soil that leaches ammonia too, as it's exactly the same stuff. It's a bit hypocritical in my opinion. We shouldn't even add fish or fish food with that logic.

I am simple and like caclulated things. I know if I fishlessly cycle the filters I can go out, get all the fish I intend to put in the tank, to the largest pleco or arowana if I like as I know exactly what ammonia levels I've cycled the tank with. Then put them all in the tank without having to quarantine small batches of fish every few weeks, and not worry about getting accidental enviromental disease outbreaks that normally get blamed on the retailer selling you sick fish.
 
Hi all,
sciencefiction said:
I just don't see why is a planted tank made look like such a magical way of cycling a tank when in fact there's no much difference than a fish-in cycle, besides the plants helping with the ammonia too making it finish faster but you won't escape the initial major water changes. And from what I gather, it's still advised to wait a few week in a planted tank before stocking it, so it isn't any different than what one would do in a fishless cycle, with that difference that in a fishless cycle you know exactly when it's done and how many fish you can stock with.
Click to expand...
sciencefiction said:
And for those that keep coming up with ammonia being toxic and not supposed to be added to tanks, then stop adding soil that leaches ammonia too, as it's exactly the same stuff. It's a bit hypocritical in my opinion. We shouldn't even add fish or fish food with that logic. I am simple and like caclulated things. I know if I fishlessly cycle the filters I can go out, get all the fish I intend to put in the tank, to the largest pleco or arowana if I like as I know exactly what ammonia levels I've cycled the tank with. Then put them all in the tank without having to quarantine small batches of fish every few weeks, and not worry about getting accidental enviromental disease outbreaks that normally get blamed on the retailer selling you sick fish.
Click to expand...
It is "horses for courses", every one is entitled to their opinion, and in the end it is a matter of personal choice how any-one manages their fish tanks. The first point is that I'd agree limiting and reducing the amount of ammonia in the system is the most important single factor in biological filtration, and it certainly the approach that I use, but
  • You can't measure levels of NH3(NH4+), NO2- or NO3- accurately with any of the kits available to us, it is difficult even with dedicated lab equipment. That is why measurement of pollution in relatively clean waters is done using a combination of Biotic Index and 5 day BOD test. After you've added a known volume of NH3, it is very difficult to find out what amount remains.
  • NH3 is a biocide and extremely toxic to all organisms. There is a huge difference between the normal biological processes that produce ammonia, and adding a large dose of it.
  • Biological filtration systems combining growing plants and microbial systems are about an order of magnitude more efficient than microbial systems on there own, they are also a lot more resilient, partially because of the oxygen production by the plants. An establishment period is just "belt and braces". Have a look at this paper Aquatic phytoremediation: novel insights in tropical and subtropical regions> <http://195.37.231.82/publications/pac/pdf/2010/pdf/8201x0027.pdf>
For me it honestly is a no-brainer, you only have to search through forums and you get "why has my cycle stalled?", "cycled my tank but my fish died" etc. and this one from UKAPS <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cycling-a-planted-tank.23546/>

If you approached a non-fish keeping scientist interested in fresh-water pollution and talked about "the fishless cycle" and adding ammonia, they would be both confused and incredulous.

cheers Darrel
 
From what I've read, there are different types of nitrifying bacteria that establish in tanks and it varies from tank to tank. Some of them require high levels of ammonia/nitrIte to function, some require low amounts and high amounts are toxic to them. You don't really know which ones will thrive in your particular system.

The accepted maximum norm non-toxic norm is 4-5ppm, hence these are the maximum levels used to fishlessly cycle a tank but there are arguments that lower is better and faster. In the early days fishless cycle was misunderstood and people dumped very high amounts of ammonia thinking it's better, or they just miscaclulated.

There are a few ways to stall a fishless cycle and that's when you let the nitrIte go out of hand, over 5ppm on the chart as that's toxic amounts. The nitrIte can rise to hundreds of ppm before nitrite bacteria starts getting established as the ammonia bacs really start doing their job faster, for me after 3-4 days the levels start going down daily. The amounts of ammonia converted acidifies the water to a point where soft water will loose it's buffer capacity. The Ph can then crash and those same scientist say that in ph lower than 6.5 the nitrification slows down. At ph of 6 the normal aquarium nitrifying bacteria is inhibited. Also at lower Ph the ammonia is mostly in it's ammonium form, but it's the NH4 form of ammonia that we are trying to grow bacteria in the filters for. The accepted norm is to use baking soda during fishless cycle to keep the Ph high and the ammonia in NH4 form in order not to stall the cycle one way or another, not have more than 4-5 ppm ammonia at any given time and not let the nitrItes go beyond measurable.
I know you say it's impossible to test the exact levels, but home liquid test kits are enough to give you a general idea where you are at. It doesn't need to be exact science because once you find out that ammonia and nitrIte go down regularly and often, you just dump all the water out, refill the tank with safe dechlorinated temperature matched water and you are ready to put fish.
The argument about not having enough oxygen to do a fishless cycle with 4-5ppm of ammonia is unfounded because it's been done numerous times with those levels, with no plants to help the oxygen levels and the normal surface aggitation works just fine for that.

As for threads where someone's fish died, that's when they just dump fish in totally uncycled tanks and is irrelevant to the method.
One can find plenty of threads where inexperienced plant keepers have had sick fish while trying to do a silent plant cycle, whether because their plants don't grow fast enough, get infested by algae and plants melt or just missed a very important point in setting it up, but it's far from a bullet proof method, same as any other.

Personally, I've fishlessly cycled tanks using ammonia while plants were already in the tank and there was no detrimental effect on the plants or the fish once the tank was cycled. These have been setup for months and years and I haven't had an initial disease outbreak or any negative effect from doing it that way.

And the last tank had fishlessly cycled filters, then 4 weeks ago I added the mineralized soil and planted the tank and then less than two weeks ago fish were added and have been living happily already for 2 weeks so far. At the moment this 100G tank holds 20 corys, 9 platies and 1 guppy and the ammonia/nitrIte are 0. There's no algae besides very little diatoms here and there that appeared only in the last week and this is probably due to the sudden increase of bioload and will recede as it usually does. I would have added the fish sooner if my plants didn't melt like crazy initially and I didn't want to be disturbing soil while there's fish in the tank.
And I would have fishlessly cycled the tank with the filters substrate and plants already in it as usual if I had mineralized the soil on time and I had my lights which I hadn't received yet.
 
Hi all,
Last one from me.
sciencefiction said:
There are a few ways to stall a fishless cycle and that's when you let the nitrIte go out of hand, over 5ppm on the chart as that's toxic amounts. The nitrIte can rise to hundreds of ppm before nitrite bacteria starts getting established as the ammonia bacs really start doing their job faster, for me after 3-4 days the levels start going down daily.
Click to expand...
But surely the whole point is that you never need to get high levels of nitrite, high levels of NO2- are just the smoking gun from the ammonia addition.
The amounts of ammonia converted acidifies the water to a point where soft water will loose it's buffer capacity. The Ph can then crash and those same scientist say that in ph lower than 6.5 the nitrification slows down. At ph of 6 the normal aquarium nitrifying bacteria is inhibited.
Click to expand...
This really isn't true, microbial systems are much more fluid and complex than this.
sciencefiction said:
Also at lower Ph the ammonia is mostly in it's ammonium form, but it's the NH4 form of ammonia that we are trying to grow bacteria in the filters for. The accepted norm is to use baking soda during fishless cycle to keep the Ph high and the ammonia in NH4 form in order not to stall the cycle one way or another, not have more than 4-5 ppm ammonia at any given time and not let the nitrItes go beyond measurable.
Click to expand...
Free ammonia (NH3 gas) is very difficult to measure, but NH4+ (the ammonium ion) is slightly less problematic and is what the tests measure by acidifying the solution and measuring TAN. The problem comes that NH3/NH4+ are in a pH mediated equilibrium.

L_IMG_figure4.gif

Also people will tell you that NH4+ isn't toxic, but that isn't actually true. It is still toxic but usually sub-lethal. You do need a source of carbonates, but adding large amounts of baking soda etc is likely to be self-defeating. If you don't add the ammonia in the first case you don't need to add sodium (bi)carbonate, or worry about pH, NO2- or the NH3/NH4+ equilibrium.
sciencefiction said:
The argument about not having enough oxygen to do a fishless cycle with 4-5ppm of ammonia is unfounded because it's been done numerous times with those levels, with no plants to help the oxygen levels and the normal surface aggitation works just fine for that.
Click to expand...
I can tell you unequivocally that oxygen is a limiting factor in nearly all polluted systems, unfortunately dissolved oxygen is even more difficult to measure than ammonia, but systems high in ammonia inevitably have huge BOD values.
sciencefiction said:
One can find plenty of threads where inexperienced plant keepers have had sick fish while trying to do a silent plant cycle, whether because their plants don't grow fast enough, get infested by algae and plants melt or just missed a very important point in setting it up, but it's far from a bullet proof method, same as any other.
Click to expand...
Algae performs the same role as higher plants, just not as efficiently. I'd always recommend a floating plant in a newly set up tank, partially to get around "problems" of submerged algae, and also because they have access to aerial CO2 levels. A floating plant like Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) is a very good indicator of nutrient levels, which is why I use it for the "Duckweed Index".

Have a look at this one: <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/dosing-for-a-barr-non-co2-method-tank.18073/>

cheers Darrel
 
I meant NH3, not NH4 when referring to ammonia at high Ph levels above. Just typed it without thinking.
You are right that oxygen is a limiting factor, but facts point that you get enough via surface agitation to at least cycle a tank fishlessly. Now if you are overrun with rotting debris, plants, decomposing stuff in the soil,plants not growing and left to melt in the tank and lack of surface movement, then it's another story.

This really isn't true, microbial systems are much more fluid and complex than this.
Click to expand...

I am not claiming that's the only acidifying process or it's simple. But is it not true that ammonia to nitrIte conversion is an acidifying process because from what I can recall from chemistry it is? And have you done a fishless cycle with ammonia measuring what happens to the water via Kh, Ph test the least? There are plenty of examples of crashed Ph when doing a fishless cycle. My Kh went from 8 to 4 in no time but that is enough to buffer my Ph without backing soda for the entire process. However, if you start with a Kh of 4 or less, then just wait and it will crash. It will happen in a planted tank with soft water, but people either don't notice because they are injecting CO2 and the Ph is supposed to go down anyway, and the plants help with the ammonium, so the nitrifying bacteria getting inhibited isn't detrimental to the system but there will be a rise in ammonia when that happens.

A floating plant will help stabilize the system or any fast growing plants if they grow fast, but they won't cycle your tank and won't be enough for a heavy bioload.
 
Don't really see the advantage to stocking heavily from the outset.
Could just as easily wind up with a tank full of sick fish unless quarantine is used. Is same for any method.
Have used fish in method, (can be done with no harm to fishes) Fishless method ,(no quicker in my expieriences) Prawn,fish food method (no harm to fauna),and silent cycling with plant's. (most folk's won't begin with enough plant's or research on growing).
Would hand's down choose silent cycling with plant's (way less trouble,no daily testing,dosing,pH adjusting.etc.)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top