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Should I fishless cycle a new planted tank?

Not sure that a decaying prawn producing ammonia has a significantly different net effect than adding bottled ammonia/um.

As for wanting to chuck a load of fish in at once, I believe the idea came from Chris Cow to immediately stock African Cichlids.

Darrel is correct, our tanks will never see the heady heights of ammonia (and nitrite) that we add to our ranks to fishlessly cycle them. In the ideal world we'd know the typical amount of ammonia excreted from a full stock of fish, whatever full stocking means, and would drip ammonia in at a trace level over the day up to the amount needed to sustain the intended bioload. In practice, that's impossible and impractical, so we dose the 2ppm or whatever. I'd personally be inclined to dose low and often where practicable.

Whatever we do to cycle with ammonia, bicarbonate, water changes etc, we reset the water at the end hopefully via a few water changes, and check the oxidisation process after each water change to ensure the munchers were happy with the change in parameters.

All said and done, there are many ways to skin a cat. Personally I'll back anything that ensures that eliminates the risk of fish being unnecessarily exposed to toxins, and I see no reason that anybody should disagree with that statement. So cycle away using any method suggested, as long as you can ensure that the livestock don't suffer.
 
I see it like this, if your having a planted tank then let the plants do the work, no point adding ammonia.. If you want fish and plants then theres no harm in a fishless cycle,It really depends on what fish and size of fish going in,if its a few barbs and tetras then the little ammonia produced would make no odds but you put a few big cichlids in then that's a different story, A fishless cycle would make all the difference....personally ive always had good results with the fishless cycle, never had a crash in pH, just don't go mad with ammonia, but to try and cycle a tank with something dead like a prawn is just crazy..
 
Nothing crazy about using Prawn,fish food ,(no fishes) to help establish biological filter if one undestand's what the bacterial colony we srtive to establish feed's on.
A small cocktail shrimp (1) ,per 20 gal in mesh net ,with small stone to hold it down.(toss it in the tank)
Wait four week's, and test for ammonia,nitrites ,nitrates. Usually not much left of the prawn and 60% water change knock's back usually significant nitrates.
Have used this method for class room project's on as many as a dozen tank's at a time.
Down side is the tank(s) can get a bit stinky but water changes don't really slow the process to any degree,and it ain't too bad with just one tank.(opinion'ds vary).
Is no different than the ammonia method of fishless cycling and effective so long as you don't get all ignorant with too many,or too large of prawn ,nor ignorant with regard's to stocking.
Student's used the time to research fishes they were planning on stocking.
 
weasel said:
I see it like this, if your having a planted tank then let the plants do the work, no point adding ammonia.. If you want fish and plants then theres no harm in a fishless cycle,It really depends on what fish and size of fish going in,if its a few barbs and tetras then the little ammonia produced would make no odds but you put a few big cichlids in then that's a different story, A fishless cycle would make all the difference....personally ive always had good results with the fishless cycle, never had a crash in pH, just don't go mad with ammonia, but to try and cycle a tank with something dead like a prawn is just crazy..
Click to expand...

I agree that adding a prawn or anything that decays slowly is not ideal because of the stench it would produce and the potential mess that it could create in the filter. Additionally, the end result is to have ammonia be processed into nitrite and then in turn have that nitrite be processed into nitrate; from my own experience it can take 1-3 weeks for pure ammonia to be processed by nitrosomonas bacteria into nitrite so why would you want to add a slowly decaying object into the water which will take additional time for ammonia to be oxidised from it. It would be better just to get straight to the point by adding bottled pure ammonia.

As Lurch has said above, pure ammonia is irritant and toxic to fish but this chemical is completely removed prior to fish and/or plant addition after the fishless cycle can be continually realised.
 
I personally wouldn't want a rotting prawn in my tank for the same reasons, also attracting the wrong bacteria and fungi too, same for using food. Pure ammonia is best in my opinion, and you get the right ppm desired. Also dosing lower ammounts of ammonia, but more often is probably a better option. I just make sure there's a bit at all times but never too high, besides the first dose. The ammonia really starts getting processed fairly fast, it's the nitrItes that stick around for longer in my experience. Once they both start getting processed, I increase the dose gradually if I am going to fully stock the tank at once, or at least add a large group of fish.
 
Thats how i see dead stuff in the tank,all sorts of parasites and bad bacteria thrive on the dead..1ml of 9% ammonia in my 140 gave me 1ppm ish ammonia soon as this reduces to almost 0 then i'll use 0.5 ml to keep it at 0.5ppm all the time i.ll be trickling 4 litre of fresh water going in per day to keep it buffering.soon as i get a nitrite spike the waters emptied and refilled.0.5ml is still used till i get 0 reading on nitrites..once its zero then waters emptied and fresh water goes in..0.5 ammonia is introduced, if its gone in 12 hours then fish go in..my filter has 20lpm air pump running on it..my tank cycled in 19 days..
 
The Prawn rot's slowly (just like fish poo,fish food, daily ,) ,which in turn gradually feed's larger and larger bacteria population.(Tank mature's slowly which is good thing)
Is no different bacterial reaction than would occur when dead fish goes undetected behind mass of plant's,wood,rock.
Same bacteria feed on the decaying Prawn that slowly produces ammonia,which in turn feed's the nitrifying bacteria.
No water changes usually needed,no dosing,testing,buffering the pH,etc,etc,.
Is about as simple as it get's.(children can do it)
I never much cared for the term "cycled" for it implies that at some point the process is complete ,when in fact the bacterial colony ebb's,and waynes,with the dynamic's of the tank (ie) metabolic input,fish load,feeding's,maint or lack thereof.
If one were to look at sample of their aquarium water under a microscope,,they would no doubt see all kind's of different bacteria ,and or microscopic critter's, that thrive in established,mature, aquarium's.
A colony of one type of bacteria does not make for a mature tank in my view (opinion's vary),any more than a stand of tree's in a field makes a forrest.
One must also look to the ground around the tree's at the leaf litter,mosses, insect's and insect larvae that feed on the leaf litter,bird dropping's,animal waste that further inhances the composting going on naturally, and the benefit to the soil which in turn fuel's more growth for tree's,plant's in the area.
. All kind's of bacteria present in maturing aquarium's and can be interesting to observe it all slowly develop into mature, established,tank's.
As ,has been said,,there are may way's to skin a cat.
 
I think that when we all talk about starting off an aquarium cycle, we assume that everyone is at the same page in learning and level of knowledge.:wideyed: However when discussions take place on forums, it gets very polarised and stuck to positions, of what each person or groups, current knowledge or expertise areas of the subject are. I think we should first establish what is the current thought that actually occurs within the nitrogen cycle and what the latest scientific position is:bookworm: . Hopefully in this way we will be able to educate the uneducated, update the outdated knowledge out there and at the same time bringing all to a general level of knowledge that can be agreed as a starting base. :thumbup: Wouldn't it be possible for the scientifically educated to start putting a base line down as to the general consensus of this process, that way it will avoid all the general controversy going forward and potentially educate rather than further confuse the readers.:clap: If I knew how to upload a picture I could start off with a picture of a general cycle diagram, containing most of the processes? Anyone help?
 
I think we have scared the OP off... This thread was his first and would appear his last. Must be all the talk of dead prawns and ammonia

Id put a pic up for you trog but my laptop died. I think all the info is on this thread but needs looking at through unbiased eyes.
I like the idea of planting heavily getting tank running with no fish but im far too impatient for that, so are many others.Thats why i use seeded media and monitor closely. As for pouring ammonia in, its an extra i dont really need. I cant afford to buy 5 meters worth of fish in one go anyway
The OP's question was answered halfway down first page. After that people started defending the methods they use and they all started to run in circles with no real data to prove/disprove either side and it dosent help when people use words like "Crazy"

If your patient plant it, get it right, then stock it

If your not patient, but dont want to stock all at once(like me) use seeded media and build stocking levels slowly

If your really impatient use seeded media fed with ammonia and fully stock when happy.

One thing everybody agrees on is that fish and ammonia/nitrites dont want to be in tank at same time. The rest dosent really matter
 
Troglodyte said:
I think that when we all talk about starting off an aquarium cycle, we assume that everyone is at the same page in learning and level of knowledge.:wideyed: However when discussions take place on forums, it gets very polarised and stuck to positions, of what each person or groups, current knowledge or expertise areas of the subject are. I think we should first establish what is the current thought that actually occurs within the nitrogen cycle and what the latest scientific position is:bookworm: . Hopefully in this way we will be able to educate the uneducated, update the outdated knowledge out there and at the same time bringing all to a general level of knowledge that can be agreed as a starting base. :thumbup: Wouldn't it be possible for the scientifically educated to start putting a base line down as to the general consensus of this process, that way it will avoid all the general controversy going forward and potentially educate rather than further confuse the readers.:clap: If I knew how to upload a picture I could start off with a picture of a general cycle diagram, containing most of the processes? Anyone help?
Click to expand...


The problem is that people don't always want to listen or invest the time reading. Or are too attached to the half-correct 'lore' that gets bandied around. Or as you can see in this thread, there are various approaches that all technically work, even if they're nonsensical in the context of a planted tank.

Darrel tirelessly posts extremely informative and informed replies on these sorts of topics (see Best Way To Start A Planted Tank? for example). Whether people want to take it on board or not is up them. You can lead a horse to water...
 
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