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Amano's use of diffusers

Brian Murphy

Brian Murphy

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2012
Messages
592
Location
Omagh, N.Ireland
As I have a 5ft tank (151cm), I've been battling to achieve proper Co2 distribution and flow. I have researched and researched til the cows have come home and the main advice is to use spraybars with inline atomizers etc, but I have noticed that in Amanos set-ups he uses lily pipes and single glass diffusers. He also seems to use just one filter without use of added powerheads etc so how does he achieve the x10 rule. What are your thoughts on this?

Heres a sample video

 
Hi Murf

The tanks in the NA Gallery have been discussed a few times on UKAPS. This is what I wrote last time (extracted from Iain's Asia Dreams journal).

1. Very frequent maintenance. Likely daily. Big maintenance team always on hand to nip any issues in the bud.
2. Low lighting levels. Sure, they're metal halide but they're NA-Green bulbs that have relatively low PAR. They're also suspended quite high.
3. Low water column nutrients and low CO2. This combined with the low light makes the tanks low energy, and so the requirement for perfect circulation is reduced. Aqua Soil obviously helps with the low water nutrient levels. I also believe the soft water helps.
4. Huge algae crew - 1+ shrimp per litre, loads of otos, and SAEs in larger tanks.

So basically they probably don't follow the 10x guideline etc. because they don't need to.
 
I agree with all the above but not with the low CO2, compared to the amount of light it is high CO2. Second I always felt tanks with ADA type diffusors can go with lower amounts of CO2. The only explanation I could think of is that the small CO2 bubbles hitting the leaves in reality delivers very high CO2 concentrations locally.

But the main reason is as George said low light (read: less flow and CO2 demand).
 
This an interesting discussion. The ADA fertilization philosophy is also different in that it does not work with the EI principle (as I understand it at least).

I was surprised about your points about low light, but makes sense. Would you say that this is reflected in his plant choice, i.e. are there plants not used because of their higher light requirements?

Thomas
 
Hi guys,

I'm not sure it is high CO2, as relatively little of the CO2 mist gets distributed all over the tank (compared with a decent inline diffuser and lots of flow), with much of it hitting the surface. Also in Amano's earlier publications where he stated his CO2 levels; they were rarely over 18ppm.

The ADA fertiliser range is designed to be used in conjunction with their relatively nutrient-rich substrate system, so it does not matter that it is so lean. As the nutrients in the substrate become exhausted the idea is to step up the nutrients via the Step bottles i.e. 1, 2, 3 with each containing more nutrients.

In some of his set-ups there are higher lit tank i.e. 3 x 250w halide over a 180cm. It would be interesting to get PAR measurements of these. I suspect they're still not very high due to the amount of green in their spectral output.

You will notice that there aren't many NA Gallery tank with super-red stems... Make of that what you will.

I really think the high quantity of algae-eating shrimp and regular maintenance are the two fundamental keys to their success.

What I'd really like to witness up close and personal is Amano's massive home tank. I've seen video footage of the tall stems in the background that are super-healthy all the way to the substrate.
 
George Farmer said:
What I'd really like to witness up close and personal is Amano's massive home tank. I've seen video footage of the tall stems in the background that are super-healthy all the way to the substrate.
Click to expand...

not wrong, 150cm stems and visually no water movement :crazy:

My mind bobbles though that his growth rates are that of high energy set ups, have your cake and eat it....??! Mum lied lol
 
George Farmer said:
I'm not sure it is high CO2, as relatively little of the CO2 mist gets distributed all over the tank (compared with a decent inline diffuser and lots of flow), with much of it hitting the surface. Also in Amano's earlier publications where he stated his CO2 levels; they were rarely over 18ppm.
Click to expand...

Lots of CO2 might get lost but it might still be high CO2. The old setups used less light and stated 1:10 PO4:NO3 as well. He uses way lower now.

George Farmer said:
In some of his set-ups there are higher lit tank i.e. 3 x 250w halide over a 180cm. It would be interesting to get PAR measurements of these. I suspect they're still not very high due to the amount of green in their spectral output.
Click to expand...

I believe I saw some on a different forum. They are quite low indeed. Just enough to grow most plants like glosso if enough CO2 is injected. But not enough to get very red stems indeed.

I'm not using 10x flow either, but if I want to use more light than I'm using right now I need to add an extra circulation pump and higher CO2 etc.

TOO said:
The ADA fertilization philosophy is also different in that it does not work with the EI principle (as I understand it at least).
Click to expand...

Basically it is the same, make sure every nutrient is available in high enough quantities at any moment. The only difference is that Amano supplies it by the substrate instead of the water column. The idea behind this is that all rooted plants have nutrients available all the time but algae in the water column don't. (Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger!)
 
Murf said:
So that means that I should reduce my lighting set up on my juwel 400 so that I'm not always striving to achieve perfect Co2 distribution. If Amano admits that he is only reaching 18ppm, how does he achieve pearling?
Click to expand...
With very low water hardness. I have observed that plants in low water hardness require less CO2 and can pearl well with less light as well.
 
Yo-han said:
asically it is the same, make sure every nutrient is available in high enough quantities at any moment. The only difference is that Amano supplies it by the substrate instead of the water column. The idea behind this is that all rooted plants have nutrients available all the time but algae in the water column don't.
Click to expand...


In a way this makes sense. As I understand it the ADA liquid fertilizers, perhaps with the exception of their Brighty Lights, are mainly micro. So macro must come either via substrate or fish waste. But, within this philosophy, that must also mean that using EI with e.g. Aquasoil would in a sense be overdosing? Also, for me, it raises the question of "where" plants uptake macro nutrients. In the ADA philosophy, as interpreted by Yo-han, they mainly uptake via the roots, whereas the EI philosophy seems to be premised on uptake via the water column and, hence, the leaves as well.

Perhaps I am over- or misinterpreting some things here, but I find the discussion of great interest since it seems to point to different theories.

Thomas
 
Plants take up micros and macros by roots and leaf. It differs a little per plant what the preferred route is. For example cryptos and echinos prefer roots, while most other plants can do both. Epiphytes need macros in the water column so 0:0 (P:N) is not a ideal way to go (perhaps with only rooted plants but this is a different story). I tried, all mosses and ferns just won't grow much, causing algae. So this is why ADA makes brighty lights (macros). Add triple the amount, and besides the fact that you are broke quite fast, all plants flourish.

About ADA making sense, it has long been shown nutrients in the water column do not cause algae. Algae can prosper with amounts of nutrients far below the zero on our testkits. NO3 and PO4 causing algae... Keeping an old myth alive. IMO a bad thing from such a influencing company.

So what about EI and ADA aquasoil? Best of both worlds? Plant-wise definitely yes! Now only you need to worry about is CO2 and light
 
On the original question about the diffusers.

How this is all possible? Additional to George's nice list.
Soft water need less CO2. And they have soft water in their tank. Just look at the earlier files what they documented. but on the diffusers...

On the glass diffuser market there is a huge difference on the ceramic. Cheapo cheramic diffusers are less effective. They do larger bubbles the ceramic is not diffuse equally the CO2 etc. So not just the glasses are different between the machine manufactured piece (cheapo) and the handmade (ADA, Do!Aqua) diffusers, but the ceramic too!

Before i would be offended as an ADA distri :) I have to tell there is a significant difference using a good ceramic and bad one. With a good one you need less CO2, and more stays in the water column because of the extra small bubbles. I had a time when i said that even the diffusers got clogged later if you use quality ceramic. I still feels that but on a daily basis it is better to do a weekly or biweekly cleaning anyway so this does not add that much value to the package.

After tested out nearly all CO2 equipment i came to a conclusion that injection rates between diffusers, reactors, inline ones are the following.

Quality CO2 external reactor, inline diffuser, quality glass diffuser works exactly the same effective way. They differentiate in maintenance, care only.
Then the mass manufactured diffusers, cheapo reactors like Sera etc. They are far behind the above ones, BUT! you also can inject the same ammount of CO2 with them just need more work, more CO2, more tests with the flow etc.

Light is not that low above the ADA tanks as many uses powercompact additions to their Solar HQI. But they play with the height. And again soft water makes it all easier! - i know Clive will kill me :) but have less algae issues, need less CO2 so life is easier. Did i ever tell you i am a soft water guy? :)

Still not all the ADA tanks are in top condition. Sure they are algae free and very well maintenanced, but if you look at some close up you will see that sometimes carpet plants are not in top shape mean 100% condition just 70% etc. Well this isn't easy at all to keep a layout in this form for a year and plants also get older and some looks weird after the trimmings, regenerate on a different way etc. So there is a lifecycle and plant age also which plays here, but they have just the same issues like we all have. Of course with a massive routine from the past years make it easier to get over on it. :)

Maintenance that much tank all the time to be in top shape for the visitors..... this is a tons of work and dedication for sure which deserve a respect.

PS: i've also seen some cheapo CO2 diffusers which has new ceramics nowadays. They do better then the early birds, however because of the pirce range they targe they usually lack on the build side. Plastics fails frequently etc.
 
Hi Viktor,

Thanks for this comprehensive post. I have the same experience from looking at the ADA tanks that the plant health is not always perfect.

Do you say that, for example, inline diffusers are not more effective than a good ceramic diffuser? I have just ordered a UP inline so I hope you are not right :). I have an ADA ceramic diffuser now, but was hoping to get a better dissolution with the inline.

Thomas
 
I personally much prefer inline diffusers. Aesthetics are a priority for me so to eliminate as much equipment from the aquascape as possible is a good thing.

I also find that the CO2 mist created from my Up Aqua inline diffuser is very effective with microbubbles reaching all over the water column in almost equal measure.

To achieve the same result with in-tank diffusers is virtually impossible - at least in my experience.

However, I cannot deny the apparent effectiveness of some aquascapers' use of in-tank diffusers i.e. the NA Gallery and Viktor.

At the end of the day, if it work well for you, then it works. I've tried many different methods of CO2 diffusion, and I prefer the inline method at the moment. But I always remain open-minded... :)

I totally agree with Viktor about the use of soft water. I've grown many plants for years with hard tap water but the results I get with RO are better with the vast majority of species. I cannot present any hard evidence though - sorry!
 
Talking about ADA ferts...

I used them until about one and half months ago (now with EI).
I always use ADA Powersand on my layouts, but on my last 300l layout after making tests every 15 days i got the conclusion that 2 month after the first day i had no more macros on water (lots of HM on the aquarium and a 1,20m lawn of sp. mini).
This was a chock for me. Spending >20 Euros on Power Sand and loosing Macros so close to the assembly date is something that never happened.
It might be the case that i didn't use as much as it should, but ... it's very little time.

Wonder if NA aquariums use Brighty Light only after a year or so...

Viktor did i understand you right that diffusers on your shop are cleaned 1x or 2x times a week?
 
pmgsr said:
Viktor did i understand you right that diffusers on your shop are cleaned 1x or 2x times a week?
Click to expand...

Usually weekly with the water changes. We do not wait to see this green as the bubbles and the diffuser effectiveness get worst. Weekly maintenance on them gives perfect result.

We also have mixed tanks just to have a full comparsion. So we have glass diffusers and external reactors also. We dropped inline ones as there are many faulty units on the market and very bad copycats to the original brown housed Up one. If inline then go for the original old stuff there the plastic sealing is good and the housing is almost impossible to break.
 
I used the same Up aqua inline for my last 2ft'r tank and honestly ADA diffusers are kinda out of my reach (with so many tanks at home - would be wife will kill me if I spend anymore after I broke a lily pipe) I find it to be the best and completely agree with George.
 
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