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Take a deep breath...

Rob P

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2013
Messages
785
Hey folks,

Sorry for this mammoth post but would just like to run it from the top :)

My tank is absolutely no show tank, all I’m striving for at the mo is a nicely planted tank with lush/healthy growth and happy inhabitants. Next tank or a rescape will possibly be a little more adventurous ;)

So, let me get the main details in first:

Aquarium: Fluval Roma 125 litre, 80cm x 35cm x 45cm.
Filter/pumps: Aquamanta 800lph (spraybar outlet) and Koralia 900 nano pump.
Lighting: TMC Grobeam Ultima twin 6500K LED strips, retro fitted to existing T8 tube holders, through an Aquaray controller.
Heating: Hydor 200w inline external, tank temp: 26 deg C.
CO2: 2kg FE set up including solenoid, ceramic diffuser (under powerhead).
Substrate: JBL Aquabasis+ covered with Unipac sand

Lights are on 3pm to 9.10pm with a 30 minute sunrise/set cycle (so on dimly at 3pm ramping up over 30 minutes). These are currently running at 65% of max intensity. I have no idea what wattage these are equivalent too, I understand these lights give me ‘medium’ lighting. In the first 2 weeks I didn’t have a controller and the lights were on 100% in two blocks, 8am to 12pm, 5pm to 9pm. I am unable to elevate these due to fitment inside integrated hood.

Pressurised CO2 was only added little over a week ago and switches on at 1.45pm and off around 7.45pm. I’m still trying to get this dialled in right. I’ve never used CO2 before. The drop checker is a nice transparent green throughout the light cycle. I’m finding it hard to count a bubble rate as it’s quick! Possibly around 4+bps. Bubble distribution and flow appears good. From inaccurate liquid tests my PH looks to drop from around 7.4 to 6.7.

The tank was set up with initial planting and filling at the end of August. It ran for a week before filter media and fish were transferred.

About a week after that I noticed green algae growing on my redmoor wood. Treated with liquid carbon via pipette and it went. Ever since then I’ve been seeing what I believe to be diatoms (brown algae – dusty looking on leaves – does wipe off), BBA really covering the wood, on rocks/plants (particularly my low plants – Eleocharis sp. mini, Marsilea hirsuta & Hydrocotyle tripartita) and in the moss tied to the wood, closest to the lights (moss has hair/thread algae in it too). All this showed up before injecting CO2. I was dosing NeutroT and Neutro CO2 daily before injection, now I’m dosing Neutro+ and Neutro CO2 daily. Liquid carbon is currently 1.5 times recommended dose, ferts at recommended dose.

I’m performing a 45 litre water change every 3 days with a light substrate vac, trimming of really mucky leaves, glass cleaning etc. I’m able to scrub the BBA off the wood & rocks with a toothbrush thankfully so working round a bit at time. Plants a bit more of an issue. For example, HG has got significant BBA on it and I’ve cropped this a couple of times. I removed some of the Marsilea and cut off all black bits and replanted. It’s growing well but still developed black fur on the leaves again (BBA I presume).

So, where do I go from here? Last night I had yet another good cleanup and go at stuff with the toothbrush (as much as I could do in a couple of hours) and ditched some Hydrocotyle tripartita. It had mostly mucky leaves and isn’t growing how I expected anyway. I feel like pulling the HG up and really trimming it off and trying to replant what I can, same with the Marsilea. But it soon seems to get stuff growing on it again, incidentally these have really good flow pushing across them. Also feel like removing the wood completely (and removing sorry looking moss & anubias from it) and taking a pressure washer to it along with the rocks, but feel this will be in vain if the BBA just grows back.

I’ve got some Brazilian Pennywort which when underneath/close to the lighting bubbles away during lighting period. In a way I feel I’m devoiding other plants of light, but daren’t turn them up. Ludwigia glandulosa is growing really well, albeit with a few mucky leaves (but not as bad as some of the other plants). Some plants I have are classed as needing medium-high light which I’m pretty not sure they’re not getting.

I want to get more plant mass in there to help outcompete the algae, but feel like it would be lambs to the slaughter and throwing good money away! Last introduction was some Tropica Styrogene repens a week or so ago and it looks like it could have tinges of brown already but nothing major.

So, I’m trying to follow all the guides which read mostly the same. 6 hours light, lower light intensity, increased liquid carbon dose, extra circulation pump (added as soon as algae appeared), increased/regular large water changes and as much pressurised CO2 as I dare! It’s a real labour of love at the moment.

I do appreciate this has all happened in a short period of time, so do I just need to ‘calm down dear’ and sit it out for a while, or rip out everything I can, clean it and replace? Are there any other actions/advice you can offer me at this time to help move things along in the right direction?

Remember i'm new, so go easy!.... Now shoot!! :D

Rob
 
im no expert but what is your filtration like? is it pressurised co2 that your injecting? (not a DIY yeast mix) and how are you injecting it (inline diffuser, standard diffuser) it sounds to me like the co2 is not reaching the bottom of your tank.

Hi, this is all covered in first post.

Filter is Aquamanta EFX200 external filter rated 800lph water delivered to tank by spray bar along the rear. Flow/turnover suplemented by a Koralia nano 900lph circ pump.

CO2 = 2kg Fire Extinguisher pressurised cyclinder on regulator/solenoid. On/off times stated in 1st post. Glass ceramic diffuser placed near bottom under Koralia powerhead (about 5 inches above the diffuser), bubbles rise into powerhead and are then sucked in/distributed around the tank.

Also there is about 500% more light than is needed. Diatoms occur when there is too much light.

Can you make a suggestion based on this comment? I was told that lighting would be considered medium lighting on my tank (at full whack), so at 65% I'd assumed i'd be well below medium light levels! What effect on my plants that state they require medium/high light would turning them down lots more have? (i'm aware, or should I say I have read, that CO2 is more important than the light for growth?). If I turn them down to say 40%, do I need to reduce my CO2 injection? I'm not around through the day so like to make 'major' adjustments on a weekend when I am around to monitor.

Thanks for your replies :)

Rob
 
I agree about the more light than necessary but diatoms grow in low light as well. Add some Otocinclus, they love it!

I have no more space for stock and otos not suitable for my water. I'm wanting to add a significant number of shrimp and some nerites to help clean up/maintain the tank but holding off doing this until i've got my hardscape clean and clear, just in case I need to remove it all which will be much easier/less stressful without having to dodge a load of critters!!
 
Yeah, I would never use fish to solve an algae problem. You must fix the conditions that lead to poor plant health. Then the algae will go away.
Based on other folks who have had issues using powerful LED such as Growbeam, I would immediately drop the intensity level to about 20% in order to give the plants room to breathe. There are no plants that "require" medium/high light, so you really need to forget about that concept in order to help your tank to recover. Again. plants simply grow more slowly when the light intensity is reduced.

When you use high light, you must also use high CO2, but when you use low light you can use high or low CO2.
CO2 turns into food for plants, so more CO2 means more food and more health.

CO2 application is not simply a button that you press. It is a technique that must be mastered and monitored, especially if there are fish in the tank.

Follow the procedure discussed in the thread Melting Marsilea hirsuta & Staurogyne repens? | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Cheers,
 
Yeah, I would never use fish to solve an algae problem. You must fix the conditions that lead to poor plant health. Then the algae will go away.
Based on other folks who have had issues using powerful LED such as Growbeam, I would immediately drop the intensity level to about 20% in order to give the plants room to breathe. There are no plants that "require" medium/high light, so you really need to forget about that concept in order to help your tank to recover. Again. plants simply grow more slowly when the light intensity is reduced.

When you use high light, you must also use high CO2, but when you use low light you can use high or low CO2.
CO2 turns into food for plants, so more CO2 means more food and more health.

CO2 application is not simply a button that you press. It is a technique that must be mastered and monitored, especially if there are fish in the tank.

Follow the procedure discussed in the thread Melting Marsilea hirsuta & Staurogyne repens? | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Cheers,

Thank you Clive. I'll have a read through that. Lee doesn't live far from me (< 3 miles :D), that's where my nice wood came from!!

I'll turn the lights down and monitor/adjust CO2 accordingly.

Would it be wise to get out of the tank what I can and remove as much algae as possible in the immediate?
 
Yes Rob. Remove as much as you can.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

Thanks, i'll be best getting the wood out, stripped of manky plants and pressure washed whilst 'relatively' easy to do so! :)
 
Hello Rob that was a long read:) I was woundering why you are running at 26 deg? Is it your fish requirements? Nothing to do with algae just asking. Cheers Kirk
 
Hi Rob

Your current lighting sounds ok to me. The strips are 12w each, roughly equivalent to a 24w HO T5. Over 125 litres with good CO2, circulation, nutrients and maintenance, this is ideal lighting IME. I wonder if Clive is confusing your lighting with mine, as they are the same brand, just different units (12w strip vs 30w tile).
 
First thing that come to mind when I read about algae problems is too much light. So yep, I would reduce light intensity and period.. Then keep up with co2, which must be high enough when lights come on. Ferts galore.

As plants become healthier I would then (if needed) raise the intensity and duration.


___________________________
Luis
@ghostsword
 
you've made changes by adding CO2 and adding macros. This you've done in the last week or so? You could be dealing with a bit of turnaround time, how's the new growth? Is this attracting BBA, etc. The old leaves will always have the BBA attached, and without macros, I reckon your leaves were deteriorating in health, slow enough to leach a nice constant amount of nutrients to the BBA to latch onto - hopefully the switch to CO2 and macro dosing will have addressed the plants needs. Trim away the BBA affected leaves as much as poss and see whether the new leaves develop the same problem. Give it another week or so....
 
Hi Rob

I have the same tank and lighting/controller as you. Also a full length spray bar and good flow Co2 etc...

My experience with these lights is that despite the rating in watts, theydo seem very powerful to me. I had loads of problems, and I know that the cause cannot be attributed only on the lighting, but... Life got much easier when I dropped the output to 20%, plants started to get healthy, no algae etc... Every time I think I've got things running well I crank up the out put to say 50% and things start to look bad again. I'm finding 40% output with high Co2 levels is working fairly well for me now.
 
you've made changes by adding CO2 and adding macros. This you've done in the last week or so? You could be dealing with a bit of turnaround time, how's the new growth? Is this attracting BBA, etc. The old leaves will always have the BBA attached, and without macros, I reckon your leaves were deteriorating in health, slow enough to leach a nice constant amount of nutrients to the BBA to latch onto - hopefully the switch to CO2 and macro dosing will have addressed the plants needs. Trim away the BBA affected leaves as much as poss and see whether the new leaves develop the same problem. Give it another week or so....

Guys, some great advice again, thanks to you all!! :)

Yes there's been constant changes really which no doubt has not helped my cause. It's hard to tell reference the new growth. I think since running lights at 60% some of the algae has slowed down, i've trimmed some Ludwigia back a couple of times now over the last fortnight and the new growth and replanted stems look healthy and clean (and grows quick/new strong root within a week on cut stems). I pulled some Marsilea out and chopped off the black fur, that was shortly before CO2 and macro's went in. That's got a covering again. I think I need to get everything cleaned up so I can monitor going forward with the new ferts and CO2 in operation.

Can I ask, what's the view on bleaching/carbon bathing affected plants? I ask because if i were to pull the plants out and cut off affected leaves this is going to leave some stark looking plants, particularly the smaller stuff! Don't mind eaither way, but if I were able to to pull out the clumps of say Marsilea and dip treat them it would be quicker and retain more of the plant. Obv pointless if a dip method doesn't work. Have attached a pic of how some of it looks (this is probably as bad as it gets).

Marsilea_zps71784174.jpg

I'd just like to mention that the Marsilea in the picture is from a Tropica 1-2 Grow pot and actually arrived with a fair bit of black (stems) already on it. Assume this is down to the compact nature of how it is grown. Before planting I trimmed off the worst of it but couldn't remove all the black bits without seperating into many tiny pieces, which would go against the general instruction of simply washing off the jelly and cutting into a few portions ready to plant. Even in a Tropica leaflet I received with my plant order, their reference picture of a pot of Marsilea showed some brown patches so I figured this is just how this particlar plant comes.

Hi Rob

I have the same tank and lighting/controller as you. Also a full length spray bar and good flow Co2 etc...

My experience with these lights is that despite the rating in watts, theydo seem very powerful to me. I had loads of problems, and I know that the cause cannot be attributed only on the lighting, but... Life got much easier when I dropped the output to 20%, plants started to get healthy, no algae etc... Every time I think I've got things running well I crank up the out put to say 50% and things start to look bad again. I'm finding 40% output with high Co2 levels is working fairly well for me now

1st hand experience, great! :D How are your lights fitted Reuben? Into the hood in existing tube holders or do you have them suspended? Be interested to know what you've done! I do suspect it's not much helpful to have the lights a paltry inch from the surface of the water.

Turned mine down to 20% yesterday. Not as dim as I expected them to be lol, so hopefully this will move things forward in the immediate future. Just need a good cleanup now (oh the missus will be pleased!!!! :D)

Hello Rob that was a long read:) I was woundering why you are running at 26 deg? Is it your fish requirements? Nothing to do with algae just asking. Cheers Kirk

Yes it's to accomodate the fish I have mate, I could possibly drop a degree without probs. Would this help?

Thanks again, loving the inflow of useful information :)

Rob
 
Hi Rob

Your current lighting sounds ok to me. The strips are 12w each, roughly equivalent to a 24w HO T5. Over 125 litres with good CO2, circulation, nutrients and maintenance, this is ideal lighting IME. I wonder if Clive is confusing your lighting with mine, as they are the same brand, just different units (12w strip vs 30w tile).

I have to agree with this...I have used the same set up as you and didn't have any problems. I think you need to ensure flow, and nutrients are at a decent level. In most cases diatoms go on their own accord.
 
I have to agree with this...I have used the same set up as you and didn't have any problems. I think you need to ensure flow, and nutrients are at a decent level. In most cases diatoms go on their own accord.

Ian, was your lighting hood fitted?

Could anyone confirm that the ferts i'm using are ok? The recommended and actual daily doses of what I use in 125 litre are as follows:

Neutro+ = Rec: 10ml per 100L Actual: 15ml (overdosing of 20%)
Neutro CO2 = Rec: 5ml per 250L Actual: 4.5ml (overdosing of 80%)

I've seen various topics and posts about 'using enough ferts' and whilst it's easy to see that people often discuss 2, 3, sometimes even more the dose of Liquid Carbon, i've not actually seen anyone mention what 'enough' ferts is considered, 1.5 times dose, double dose etc?? I'm overdosing slightly on the grounds that i'm making sure I have 'enough'.

The diatoms seem the least of my worries and cleans away easily, the BBA is the beatch!

Rob :)
 
1st hand experience, great! How are your lights fitted Reuben? Into the hood in existing tube holders or do you have them suspended? Be interested to know what you've done! I do suspect it's not much helpful to have the lights a paltry inch from the surface of the water. Turned mine down to 20% yesterday. Not as dim as I expected them to be lol, so hopefully this will move things forward in the immediate future. Just need a good cleanup now (oh the missus will be pleased!!!! )

Hi Rob,
Yep tubes removed and two growbeams mounted there instead. As you say, very close to water surface.

I was just about to say that Ian Holdich (see previous post) used them too, but I think he had the grobeam 500's not the 600's, and that they were mounted over the tank (higher) on one of those brackets. Is that right Ian?

I don't know what the difference in output between the 500's and 600's is but I suspect it might be high? Anyone done PAR readings on them?

This said it is my understanding that if other conditions are correct (Co2, flow, nutrients) then you can blast as much light as you want without any problems, right?
 
I don't know what the difference in output between the 500's and 600's is but I suspect it might be high? Anyone done PAR readings on them?

30% according to Aquaray :) Not that we are able to use it LOL
 
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