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Help/Advice - Major plant issue/melt :(

Rob P

Rob P

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2013
Messages
785
Well, where do I start? Can't believe what i'm seeing today...

I can give more details if needed but in a nutshell - set tank up end of August, no pressurised co2, too much light, wrong ferts, algae issues. Cue reduced lighting, injected co2 (mid October), find UKAPS, Clive intervention, lots of changes, bigger filter & big rear spray bar (3 weeks ago). Start on EI 2 weeks ago. Plants growing well, seeing a reduction in algae. Regular trim of plants due to good growth. All looks good.

I've come home tonight, half of my plants have translucent leaves, loose leaves floating around everywhere, plants look real unhappy/curled up, must have fished 40+ free floating leaves out. Tank looks bare! Can't believe what i'm seeing.

All I can think right now/all that's changed:

Twinstar Nano added last Saturday.
Filter cleaned last Friday. Bag of Purigen recharged recently (bleached and rinsed well) and reinserted yesterday, along with a new filter floss.

Fish seem happy, flow and co2 is good (did a PH profile Wednesday and getting 1 point drop from lights on til lights off).

What the hell has happened? Some plants seem totally unaffected but some have literally fallen apart in a day (Ludwigia glandulosa and couple of spieces of Hygro). I'm leaning towards bleach left in the Purigen but fish seem totally unaffected.

Can anyone give me any idea what may have happened?

Rob
 
:eek: sorry to hear this Rob,after all your hard work it's just not fair:( did you do an ammonia test on the purigen in some water before you put it back in?
 
Hi Miranda, i know it sucks :(

The hygro polysperma, siamensis and ludwigia are practically stripped back to bare stems this morning. Other plants seem ok. Fish are well.

I didn't test the purigen, i did read up on the whole recharging process and all pointed to if you could smell bleach to do a test. Mine didn't wiff so just put it back in. Tbh was slightly nervous about it. Do you think it could be the cause having not affected the fish and other plants?
 
I wouldn't like to say Rob but to me it seems a possibility as the melt happened after you did that :( I don't like the idea of recharging the Purigen although I know it's supposed to be perfectly fine so I just buy a new bag of it.
If you think about it,when there is ammonia in a fish tank you can't actually smell it either as the amounts are small but still enough to affect livestock etc.
I would do an ammonia test on the tank just to rule it out if nothing else.
 
Ammonia test done on tank and no reading. (disclaimer-hobby grade kit lol).

Not sure if I should remove purigen and put some carbon in perhaps? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
 
Hi rob, I'm sure ammonia would affect livestock before your plants, I think I've read plants can utilise ammonia, your ph profile though shouldn't it be a 1 point drop by lights on holding steady until just before lights off ? Plants shedding leaves is classic co2 or distribution issues, maybe your increased plant mass has hampered flow to the lower levels of the tank.
 
Rob P said:
Ammonia test done on tank and no reading. (disclaimer-hobby grade kit lol).

Not sure if I should remove purigen and put some carbon in perhaps? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Click to expand...

That's ruled that possibility out anyway.

tim said:
Hi rob, I'm sure ammonia would affect livestock before your plants, I think I've read plants can utilise ammonia, your ph profile though shouldn't it be a 1 point drop by lights on holding steady until just before lights off ? Plants shedding leaves is classic co2 or distribution issues, maybe your increased plant mass has hampered flow to the lower levels of the tank.
Click to expand...


Tim would it cause such devastation in so short a space of time?
 
Sorry to hear of your stem crash. How are the non-stem plants looking? Do you run/have a powerhead Rob? I found it was possibly the best bit of 'extra' kit I ever bought. Gets the circulation of CO2 and nutrients to most parts of the tank.
 
Thanks for replies. Tim i don't think it's down to plant mass i really don't have that many and as I've trimmed and replanted I've also cut out some unsightly bits so increases in mass as such have been minimal. My ph does drop the 1 point by lights on and hold steady throughout lighting period?

Flow is good, it's a good thing about the Twinstar in that you can certainly see distribution well lol. And the affected plants are definitely in areas of good flow, co2 injected by inline diffuser and bubbles run down front glass and along the bottom.

Really did just happen in a day spectacularly. Anyway, I've cut out all the rubbish bits and saved what i can. Removed the purigen and put some carbon in just in case.

Guess the main thing is the fish are happy. Lovely showing of my rainbows last night as if to rub it in a little!

Should i redo the purigen in another 24hr prime soak/rinse and try it again?
 
Manrock said:
Sorry to hear of your stem crash. How are the non-stem plants looking? Do you run/have a powerhead Rob? I found it was possibly the best bit of 'extra' kit I ever bought. Gets the circulation of CO2 and nutrients to most parts of the tank.
Click to expand...

I was running a Koralia 900 but took it out when i put the tetratec 1200 in as it didn't seem necessary. I have to say i have good movement on all plants using a centrally mounted 60cm rear spray bar (80cm tank) and as mentioned co2 is diffused from this.

That's minimal damage to some Rotala but it's really just the ludwig and hygro that have taken a kicking. I have some hygro pinni which looks fine and some bacopa that I'm undecided on (certainly not blown up like the obviously affected stuff). All these plants are in amongst each other so just weird really!!

Anyway, off to look for some nice wood near Castle Howard now and if anyone is trimming their tanks this weekend please don't throw cuttings away as i need some more plants!! :)
 
...I reckon it's that twinstar!;)

In all seriousness I recall you said you'd had a bit of a CO2 fluctuation / increases surface agitation...I reckon this is a CO2 / flow type of issue...
 
Well the Twinstar does off gas the co2 quicker/more thoroughly over night, but the latest ph profile was done after all changes (as i always do).
 
Is there any possibility that your timer has stuck on and light have been on constantly? I've has 4 timers in 12 mths let me down do not by the cheap Tesco ones.
 
kirk said:
Is there any possibility that your timer has stuck on and light have been on constantly? I've has 4 timers in 12 mths let me down do not by the cheap Tesco ones.
Click to expand...

Hi Kirk, lights are TMC grobeams with an Aquaray controller so no dodgy time clocks involved. CO2 solenoid is on a timer but it's been perfectly fine, been double checking everything!!

I really can't belive it's flow/co2, and if it is not to such major effect so quickly. The tank is 80cm/125L with a long rear spraybar (60cm) flowing across the top and down the front powered by a tetratec ex1200. I can clearly see a wall of bubbles flowing down the front glass and distributed back around the tank/all over. It's not a heavily planted tank by any means.

Did another ph profile yesterday which points to all being ok?

PH before injection is 7.5/7.6 so it's a good drop by 3pm and stays pretty constant! (lights on at 2.50pm ramping up to a maximum of 26% over 60 minutes, ramp down starts 9.00pm).

20140105_234828_zps6dde07bc.jpg

Observation over the weekend does look as if almost stems have been affected in one way or another :( Just some more spectactularly than others (which have had to be removed). I've left the less affected plants alone but will possibly have to trim these substantially if they don't improve. Have added another pot of Ludwigia and some Hygro guianensis bought from lfs at the weekend so will see how we go from here.

Totally baffled, but still leaning towards purigen recharge/bleach (now removed and carbon in for a while).
 
Here is my list of reasons for plant wipe out I have experienced...

- Timer failure leading to lights being on 24/7.
- Too much Excel/Liquid Carbon.
- Failure for put in any macro fertiliser due to timer failure on dosing pump. (micro continued OK).

Strangely some plants appeared to be affected instantly and never recovered, just melted away, even the unaffected parts eventually melted, yet other plants carried on as if nothing happened.
 
It would be great to have the views of one of the specialist (Clive etc) on this as there is obviuosly a serious imbalance going on in the OP's tank.

I used to live close to Berti Gesting and often visited him at his shop. Bertie wrote a very informative booklet Nature and Aquarium of which I still have a copy for occasional reference. He does state quite categorically that too much oxygen is bad for the planted tank and warns against any form of air pump or spraybar that over agitates the water surface. His reasons given are that water exposed to air in this way absorbes so much oxygen that elements that are taken up by plants in their bivalent form (eg Fe2) become trivelent (fe3) and can no longer be absorbed by the plants. He states all oxygen in the aquarium should be provided by plants only and should not exceed 8 mgs/ltr.
Furthermore he says the use of activated filter carbon in the planted tank is an "biological nonsense" as 'cations' vital plant nutrients are taken out.

I just find things a little confusing as I understand the modern day procedures do advise some surface agitation and that many today seem to use carbon on occasions.

I must stress the above views are from the book mentioned and not mine, though I have tried to adhere to them over the years.
 
Hi all,
harryH said:
He does state quite categorically that too much oxygen is bad for the planted tank and warns against any form of air pump or spraybar that over agitates the water surface. His reasons given are that water exposed to air in this way absorbes so much oxygen that elements that are taken up by plants in their bivalent form (eg Fe2) become trivelent (fe3) and can no longer be absorbed by the plants. He states all oxygen in the aquarium should be provided by plants only and should not exceed 8 mgs/ltr.
Click to expand...
But our knowledge has moved on, and this isn't true, although we used to believe all sorts of similar things.

I started keeping fish in the 1970's when most people never changed any tank water, because "aged tank water" had all sorts of magical properties. It wasn't true then, and all it meant was that we forced our life-stock to live in an ammonia rich organic soup until they eventually (or normally rapidly in my case) expired.

If you are interested in ferric and ferrous iron within the tank I'd recommend the "Sceptical Aquarist", very good on all aquarium chemistry questions <Iron transformations | The Skeptical Aquarist>

cheers Darrel
 
Well I've just done a 20 minute makeover... Had to lol.

Appears that nearly every stem in the tank has been affected :( at first it was the obvious hygros and ludwigia that looked no hopers as they'd gone within a day. But was dubious about the others and they've continued to melt away. Looks like a continuation of last weeks 'incident' rather than a current problem.

The new pot of hygro guanensis and ludwigua glandulosa planted Sunday look fine while the existing plants continue to deteriorate so think I'll bite the bullet and get a few more pots to replace dying stuff and get plant stock back up.

What a carry on!
 
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