• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

Whats the importance of KH ?

tubamanandy

Member
Joined
28 Feb 2013
Messages
362
Location
Thornton, Lancashire
I'm fully aware of the importance of your KH level in a planted tank regarding stability/alkalinity but I don't know how important it is in the planted tank.

Is there an ideal level and why ?
 
I'm fully aware of the importance of your KH level in a planted tank regarding stability/alkalinity but I don't know how important it is in the planted tank.

Is there an ideal level and why ?

Although you say you are aware and tell us you aren't at the same time:p I assume the last is correct. It is important as a buffer for CO2. Some plants need it to be low (<4) but these only include specialized plants like Toninas, Eriocaulons. You don't want it to be zero though. That way your pH can drop very low and this does harm to bacteria and fish. On the other hand, I've seen perfectly healthy plants in KH=15, so anything between 1 and 15 (maybe even higher) is OK. Between 2 and 7-8 is preferred by most people.
 
Actually I can demonstrate perfect plants at KH 0.
Just about any KH is sensible as long as the rest is there in plenty.
If any type of clay substrate is used in the tank the PH will never drop to a point of harming any live stock or plants.
In a quartz gravel based set up that's different matter. In such case minimum of 4 KH is recommended only to prevent sudden shifts in the PH. Other wise most plants and fish species are not that interested in the KH at all.
 
As Yo-han said, alkalinity (= mainly HCO3- and CO3--) acts as a buffer. This means that these ions neutralize any acid which shows up in your tank. So logically, if you have small amount of these guys in your tank, that they are able to neutralize only small amount of acids. BTW, acids are produced in each aquarium. So if you add a small amount of acid into your tank, these ions will neutralize it. BUT if you add more acid then these guys are able to neutralize, then your pH begin to drop ... VERY RAPIDLY! For each 1 piece of acid, 1 piece of alkalinity will deplete. As long as you have some alkalinity, your pH will not drop. But as soon as your alkalinity is depleted, your pH will drop. So it is advisable to have at lease some alkalinity, so that your tank can resist to acids, and to pH fluctuations.
By the way, 1°dKH (= 0,357 mmol/L HCO3-) is enough to neutralize 3 ml 31% HCl in 100L tank! So if you add 3 ml 31% HCl into 100L with alkalinity 1°dKH, your pH will not change, but all your alkalinity will be depleted (= your alkalinity will be 0°dKH). So if you then add a couple of drops of 31% HCl, your pH will immediatelly drop to 4-5!
 
So basically, the KH is really for stability against PH drop and the plants are not really that bothered what the KH is.

Reason I asked is that many of my older plant books advocate keeping KH at around 5 for the plants - I guess this is simply now old information.
 
Yes, I don't know any reason (although there may be some) why plants would need HCO3- and/or CO3--, except for plants that use carbon exclusively from (bi)carbonates.
 
There are no plants that use bicarbonate or carbonate exclusively. Bicarbonate use by plants is an act of desperation. It's a very expensive in terms of energy requirement.

Also, not only are the vast majority of plants not bothered by what the KH value is, but they also don't care what the pH is, and neither are the fish concerned.

Cheers,
 
Yes. Popularity of an idea can never imply validity. Truth is never democratic.

Cheers,

I have to agree with you, not saying that majority is always right. But then again, how comes all you can read everywhere says, you have to have soft water for this and this fidh and hard water for this one... I'm confused....

So tipically all thread like: love rams ,hmmm hard water | UK Aquatic Plant Society are useless?!
 
Well, you know that most of the common fish and plants come from soft water zones such as the Amazon system or the Congo River Basin. On the other side of the coin there are the hard water Rift Valley species. People automatically assume therefore that if a plant or fish is found in a specific region, then the water parameters of that region must be duplicated in order for that fish or plant to survive. While this is sometimes the case form many plants and animals, it's not always the case. It can easily be, and often is the case, that the plants and fish are simply playing the hand they were dealt and have adapted to those conditions. It does not automatically mean that those conditions are perfect for them, only that they have figured out a way to deal with the shortcomings of their environment. When moved to a different environment they adapt to the new conditions with little fuss, especially if the new conditions are more favorable to growth.

When I observe aquatic plants in their natural habitat, their condition and appearance is a far cry from what we would call ideal. They are often tattered and weary looking. The so-called "Nature Aquarium" verdant and healthy appearance is an illusion. Plants rarely look like what we see in healthy Amano type scapes.

This is not to say that all parameters can be ignored in every case. I always have better luck breeding soft water chiclids when the water's hardness is constrained to the lower limits than when it is allowed to be as hard as possible, but there is never an issue with basic health or longevity of the fish even when the hardness and/or alkalinity is allowed to hover in the extreme high end. Discus are sometimes even bred in hard tap water many times. We definitely have plenty of empirical evidence that plants from soft, nutrient poor waters do brilliantly in hard, high nutrient water. We see that every day. Of the 300-400 plant species available to us, there are only a handful of plants that have shown to do much better at the softer end of the scale. I've deliberately added GH Booster to my already hard tap water to see what the differences were in growth and health performance and they just carry on. Others here have reported similar experiences, so it isn't a fluke.

The one parameter that people never talk about, which turns out to be the most important when it comes to plant and fish health is the cleanliness of the water. Cleanliness in the sense of low organic pollution. The plants and fish come from areas of pristine conditions, free of organic waste buildup and high in Oxygen. If you simply keep the tank clean and free of organic debris then all those other parameters that folks obsess over are rendered moot. If there is a secret to plant and fish keeping is that of cleanliness via water changes and removal of organic debris. CO2 injected tank are notorious producers of organic pollution due to the byproducts of plant metabolism. Their debris will clog the filter and settle into the sediment building up to toxic levels. I'm very particular about cleaning and so I don't have fish/plant health problems and my tanks don't get algae. It's really very simple, but the same folks who preach about the importance of KH or pH are the same who refuse to do large water changes or to keep their tanks clean in the misguided effort to maintain those parameters.

In that thread you linked to, look at posts #7 and #9. A breeder spawning his rams in TDS 660, and a hobbyist having kept wild specimens at 850. That is super high. So the other poster's failure may have nothing to do with the water hardness at all.

If you check the very top center of this photo, you'll just be able to make out a Ram guarding eggs which are inside the grove of L. aromatica. This is also a 850 microsiemen tank with KH 15 and GH 25+.
8394086227_51a9172cfd_b.jpg


Cheers,
 
ceg4048, you just changed my life!
Thanks for explaining this so clearly.

I'm a new person now! (best hopefully...)

BTW, sorry for hacking the thread in the first place... :)
 
The one parameter that people never talk about, which turns out to be the most important when it comes to plant and fish health is the cleanliness of the water. Cleanliness in the sense of low organic pollution.

+1! At the same time we argue if its OK or not to keep Cherry barbs at pH 7,5 when The Book says max 7,0, the waterquality (in terms of BOD) of the tank is totally ignored. Im sad to see how often people are offended when they are told to have dirty tank, wich is the case. Im sad to see how often we focus on "right" water parameters instead of focusing the cleannes of the water. We worry wrong things! Does worrying about pH, KH or PO4 make us better fish keepers? Im afraid of.

So you're sayiong that all that's all over the internet regarding KH and pH for fish is rubbish?

Well...I think we have learned a lot of new things about mechanisms and reactions in aquarium chemistry in a short time (and thats thanks to people like Darren, Clive, Tom Barr.etc etc who brings us all that information). Earlier we just observed The pH, is it bad or good, but nowadays we know it is something that tells us something is happening in the tank. Its our job to think what is happening and why and then, but just then, we know if its good or bad. We have started to learn that test resuts are just numbers and we have to understand what they mean, otherwise we are lost. We have also learned that aquarium is not the same as rivers or lakes no matter how much we try to create such "natural" (?) enviroment to our fish.
 
You guys made me curious. Here's an interesting reading about water parameters.
Haven't digested it all but still, I found it pretty interesting especially the part where it says that water "hardness" or "softness" is actually measured by GH and not KH... Oh well... need to learn more I guesss.....

Here's the link: The Effect of pH (and not only) on Fish=

I'm still very noob I realise.
 
Thanks for the link. The article provides comprehensive coverage of the three most popular obsessive parameters, pH, KH and GH. Unfortunately the information provided is completely irrelevant.

In Central and South American freshwater systems there are no buffers in the waters and tannic acids leach from the fallen leaves on land due to heavy rainfall. The tannic acids are byproducts of the natural insecticides that the trees use to protect themselves from leaf browsers such as insects and mammals. These acids leach into the streams, often staining the water a tea color.
130033-004-C7B2D331.jpg


Fish move from one stream to another where the amount of tannic acid varies. When it rains the waters get diluted and then as the runoff from the land enters the stream or pond the acid concentration changes. Fish and plants are constantly facing changes in pH in the water. Their bodies are easily able to cope with this. The reason is subtle, and it has to do with the kind of acid that is dissolved in the water. There are two fundamental kinds of acids. Weak acids, which do NOT disassociate very much and which therefore do not appreciably change the total quantity of Hydrogen ions, and the other is Strong acids, which disassociate almost completely and which floods the environment with massive amounts of Hydrogen ions.

The example I always like to use to describe the difference is that of Vinegar versus battery acid. Both are acids and both produce H+ ions. You would not think twice to pour vinegar on your fish & chips, but I think you would hesitate to put battery acid on those same fish & chips, right?

Vinegar is a very weak acid. It's so weak that it only produces a very small amount of H+. That small amount of H+, although fairly innocuous, still has an effect on the pH calculation, so of course when you eat vinegar the pH in your mouth will fall rapidly. Is it harmful? Of course not. Well, this is the same story with tannic acids, CO2, and all the other things in the tank water that have an effect on pH.

On the other hand, if you were to put Muriatic acid in your mouth, you probably would be without a mouth for the rest of your life. Muriatic acid, used in batteries and pools is a killer because it releases massive amounts of H+ which, in such large volumes, electrically attack almost any material it touches. The pH falls but it is not the pH calculation that is doing the damage. It is the H+. It just so happens that the way in which the calculation is performed, the pH number itself will be similar as if vinegar was used.

So when the author makes the statement,
The fish were accustomed to a certain H+ concentration. Then, suddenly, they are facing new water coming in their tank, which only contains one hundredth of the normal H+. This is a shock by itself, a very serious shock. While in stress, the fish try to adapt to the new situation when suddenly something is added in the water which creates a new solution with 100 times more H+. No organism can adapt to this sort of fluctuations!!
he is completely ignoring the difference in the types of acids. The fish & chips example already gives you proof that organic tissue (and one of the more sensitive tissues, mouth and tongue, is not affected adversely by the presence of weak acids or the large pH drop caused by weak acids.. It is very similar case for fish. Tannic acids, CO2 and a host of other organic acids being produced in the tank do not affect the fishes tissues, who combat the chemical agents in the water by secretion of a mucous slime coating, for example. Fish are not affected by pH changes large or small. What they are affected by is the presence of toxic substances which does damage their tissues. What's ironic is the acid buffers many people use, like "pH Down" type products, are toxic acids, which harms fish, specifically because the active ingredient is a strong acid.

Another area where the author completely ignores important facts is that there are no test kits that actually measure KH. KH test kits are incapable of directly measuring the concentration of Carbonate or Bicarbonate ions. The fact is that there are many different ions that behave like carbonate/bicarbonate, and so the kit is capable of telling you what the resistance to pH change is in the water as a result of the concentration of unidentified anions, which may or may not be carbonate/bicarbonate. This may seem a trivial point, but it's actually very important. The chemical behavior of carbonate/bicarbonate is not only limited to it effect on sequestering H+, but a host of other chemical characteristics and interactions (it's relationship to carbonic acids equilibrium, for example) These characteristics may have some effect on fish, but they will be different effects than all the other anions in the water that have an effect on alkalinity, and which also may be totally irrelevant to fish.

This statement is also absurd:
Again, an instant raising of the GH from 10 to 20 will cause too much stress to your fish. The living cell has a certain osmotic pressure in the interior (proportional to the concentration of particles in the cytoplasm) and has reached a dynamic equilibrium with the surrounding osmotic pressure.
GH, the concentration of Calcium and Magnesium ions, has no osmotic effect. Bicarbonate does, but NOT Ca/Mg, but the author just feels free to lump them together and he uses arbitrary value to determine what is a safe change. Fish ignore GH changes. They do not care. I do this all the time without any effect on short term or long term health. Where did they get these numbers?

So, according to the logic, it's OK to add buffers, which have an immediate impact on raising the KH, but it's not OK to suddenly raise the GH? That makes no sense.

Here is more myth. The article becomes more sensationalist as it goes on:
Thus, people aiming at a very low KH with a carbon dioxide injection should be very careful because in reality they are always at a razor's edge. If something goes wrong, there is nothing to stop their pH from plummeting or sky rocketing. There are many factors which can have such an effect. The wrong type of stones and rocks, a sandy substrate full of calcium compounds, a dead decaying fish, dying plants and many more.
Again, tested this theory time and time again and it's complete hogwash. Here is a sample of what happens plants and fish in low KH water and when the pH "plummeted" from 7 to about 3 with daily injection of CO2:

8394065235_90331b1f78_c.jpg


9513674865_800193eb05_c.jpg



Furthermore, we should know by now that this statement is not really true either:
The formula which links Carbon dioxide, carbonate hardness and pH is a very useful one and allows you to predict what the final conditions will be. It will directly show you how much carbon dioxide is dissolved in the water so you can increase or decrease the amount injected to get optimum CO2 levels.
We know that other acids in the water affect the pH in such a way as to disrupt the CO2 calculation.

At least the authors recommend against the use of alkaline or acid buffers at the end of the article but there is a lot missing and it appears to be regurgitation of a lot of misinformation without actual experimentation.

Cheers,
 
Back
Top