There are always problems with CO2. It's toxic. You will just have different problems than the person who does not have CO2 on 24 hours a day. Learn to manage the problems for whatever method you use.
Cheers,
Cheers,
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Am I gassing my fish with CO2?
- Thread starter Jafooli
- Start date
Thanks Clive,
Are you referring to yourself as Houdini now?
I will use your the step by step method you provided, so obviously I am going to have to look into getting a digital ph reader to do this.
If one is using liquid carbon as well, is there more room for error? for example, if I can get a PH profile that stays stable, but the drop is not as much as it can be, will the liquid carbon make up for this? rather than risking the stability to get a bigger drop.
Cheers again for your help, also my photoperiod is 9 hours not 8
so I guess the 5 hours will have to be perfect, and also my CO2 switches on 2 hours before, but I think I get the message, It should only take a hour before lights on for the PH to drop, well I can't work it all out now as I need a ph reader, then I can figure out my own tank and see what I need to do, I'm sure I could always make a PH profile thread when I get some readings and data. Its not easy this CO2 business, I can't believe I was once using a 2 litre bottle and yeast, and now I'm realising how hard it is, and I'm using a regulator and a bubble counter, and there all irrelevant anyway. Hopefully I will get there in the end, I'm sure it will also help when my plants get bigger as they were all half dead few weeks back, so when they do get growing hopefully oxygen levels will also rise as there current size is not helping the cause.
Are you referring to yourself as Houdini now?
I will use your the step by step method you provided, so obviously I am going to have to look into getting a digital ph reader to do this.
If one is using liquid carbon as well, is there more room for error? for example, if I can get a PH profile that stays stable, but the drop is not as much as it can be, will the liquid carbon make up for this? rather than risking the stability to get a bigger drop.
Cheers again for your help, also my photoperiod is 9 hours not 8
so I guess the 5 hours will have to be perfect, and also my CO2 switches on 2 hours before, but I think I get the message, It should only take a hour before lights on for the PH to drop, well I can't work it all out now as I need a ph reader, then I can figure out my own tank and see what I need to do, I'm sure I could always make a PH profile thread when I get some readings and data. Its not easy this CO2 business, I can't believe I was once using a 2 litre bottle and yeast, and now I'm realising how hard it is, and I'm using a regulator and a bubble counter, and there all irrelevant anyway. Hopefully I will get there in the end, I'm sure it will also help when my plants get bigger as they were all half dead few weeks back, so when they do get growing hopefully oxygen levels will also rise as there current size is not helping the cause.
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Hi mate,
Yes, liquid carbon counts as supplementary CO2, so although less pH drop means that there is less gas saturation in the water, after the plants absorb the liquid then there will be "additional CO2" available inside the plant. In this sense, yes there is more room for error. But, liquid carbon is expensive - and it also has it's own toxicity issues, so all that has to be taken into account.
Cheers,
Cheers Clive,
To be honest, its all stressing me out. I've never had a thriving tank with plants and when I did it was when I knew nothing about this plant hobby, I had a hygrophila grow out of my water and the time I did a water change the whole plant was burnt from where it reached the light's in the hood which was a shock. Back in them days my plants would grow and I had no idea how much was actually going on. The same plant nearly 2 years on, and it don't even grow more than half the tank, and everything in my tank seems like it don't want to grow, even though now I'm full of much more knowledge and providing these plants a much better environment.
I've managed to aim my output nozzles at a upward slope, the surface looks more like a fast river current right now, and I've lowered CO2 back to 1BPS so hopefully that will up my oxygen levels more. Then I can slowly focus on finding the balance.
Its hard to want to carry on sometimes. I think it might be just better for me to go with just liquid carbon and wait till I can get plants to actually grow before I even inject CO2, But I've already purchased another fire extinguisher so I will continue, its just I don't want to waste my money on a PH reader, to then see no improvement as I'm not the best at all this complicated stuff even though I want to be, its so hard and I don't get why my plants are not growing. I think I'm purchase some more plants, some liquid carbon, keep with the CO2, maybe take a chance and buy the PH meter and hope I can get experienced enough to achieve what others have here.
I will also do some research on toxic effects of liquid carbon as I've not done much research on that, and I don't want to have multiple problems, I will also buy aqua essentials own brand, I hope its just as good as the top brands. Thanks for your help. I'm sure I will get there in the end.
To be honest, its all stressing me out. I've never had a thriving tank with plants and when I did it was when I knew nothing about this plant hobby, I had a hygrophila grow out of my water and the time I did a water change the whole plant was burnt from where it reached the light's in the hood which was a shock. Back in them days my plants would grow and I had no idea how much was actually going on. The same plant nearly 2 years on, and it don't even grow more than half the tank, and everything in my tank seems like it don't want to grow, even though now I'm full of much more knowledge and providing these plants a much better environment.
I've managed to aim my output nozzles at a upward slope, the surface looks more like a fast river current right now, and I've lowered CO2 back to 1BPS so hopefully that will up my oxygen levels more. Then I can slowly focus on finding the balance.
Its hard to want to carry on sometimes. I think it might be just better for me to go with just liquid carbon and wait till I can get plants to actually grow before I even inject CO2, But I've already purchased another fire extinguisher so I will continue, its just I don't want to waste my money on a PH reader, to then see no improvement as I'm not the best at all this complicated stuff even though I want to be, its so hard and I don't get why my plants are not growing. I think I'm purchase some more plants, some liquid carbon, keep with the CO2, maybe take a chance and buy the PH meter and hope I can get experienced enough to achieve what others have here.
I will also do some research on toxic effects of liquid carbon as I've not done much research on that, and I don't want to have multiple problems, I will also buy aqua essentials own brand, I hope its just as good as the top brands. Thanks for your help. I'm sure I will get there in the end.
EdwinK
Member
To Victor. No, there should not be, except economy. I'm using CO2 24/7
Hey just an update, sorry about the depressing reply above I last made..
Well Its another day now, but another day where I woke up to a dead fish, so that's not happened for a couple of months, but the same scenario happened as I mentioned earlier in this thread. This fish seemed to act weakened to the others, and singled him self, this has also happened when I've noticed the CO2 symptoms. The fish singles its self out, then loses its ability to swim and then dies, so I was hoping he would make it, but wasn't to be.
I have turned CO2 right down as you know, upped surface agitation to the highest I've ever had, Today I tested my PH with API kit, and it was 7.4, this was like 11:30, so CO2 been on 2 and half hours.
My tap water is normally 8 so I would expect my tank to be just below 8 or at 8, like I said earlier as-well the guy in a shop once went off his rocker when he found my PH at 7. So that's a big PH drop but back then my tank was thriving.
I didn't test to see how low my PH is, I just did a high range PH test. I can't believe its that low, and all I have is a piece of wood in the tank. Well I've decided to make a video and just post it here, so maybe Clive or someone else can see something wrong. I'm totally confused, I have no idea why my tank is crashing, plants don't even grow no more, they produce like a baby leaf then stop, then repeat. I've turned CO2 off now as my FE is nearly empty and I've still not received my new one, but hopefully I get my liquid carbon today, and when I get my new FE I can hook that up. So here is the video and I'm also uploading a video of my old 90 litre I managed to find, its not great, but I just wanted to show how my plants have grown before, and I sadly could not find any with my 200 litre tank, as I've once had this tank a massive jungle, the plants would just go berserk to the point the tank was complete dark inside. Which was my aim since I have rasbora espei, and as you can see now its empty and looks half dead. Ignore the GSA on one of my leafs, and the hair algae on the wood, this has appeared weeks back, and I left that one leaf as I had already cut many, and the wood I need to clean. I need to replant the uprooted cutting, as I've tried to propagate many plants into more, the crypts were huge but now you can see I've split them and threw the rest away. So it looks more bare but there's now more individual plants in there, I did this with most of the plants and also binned all plants that had the worse diatoms on from a few weeks back. I hope the video gives some kind of idea or help to my problems.
Also most of my fish now swim with there heads down, so at an angle. I also read this can be swim bladder, I'm not sure if its CO2 toxicity leading to swim bladder. I've not fed in 4 days. Later I will feed. The problems are not as bad now I've lowered CO2 and timed it to switch of earlier, but not happy about how my fish are swimming, and for the video I had just switched the CO2 on to show you the distribution even though the diffuser could do with bleaching again as its not much of a mist but still reaching all areas of the tank, not sure if the video does it justice and also its at 1bps. Also you can't see it much but the rummy noses in that video were breathing a bit more rapid already its like they know when the diffuser is on, its hardly noticeable, but if I left that on for say 5 hours, they would go in a corner and gasp rapidly. Something ain't right and once again all 3 clown loaches were hiding under the filters which you can't see as there inside them lol, but they say bigger fish are more prone to the toxicity? and I'm already sure one cant balance right.
Here are couple images I had when I was selling some mini water lettuce on ebay, you can see some of the growth from other plants/leafs and once again my tank was thriving back then. But sadly I have no pictures of the tank its self.
http://oi59.tinypic.com/28chg9h.jpg
http://oi59.tinypic.com/v5vdah.jpg
I found a video of me feeding my fish like a year or two ago on my Fluval roma 90, and once again not full tank but you can see the plants were great and always reaching the surface.
Oh also forgot, Next week I am going to buy a PH meter from amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Waterproof-Temperature-automatic-Calibration-Screwdrivers/dp/B005LDT5NE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1394802182&sr=8-1&keywords=ph meter
Other wise we will be going around in circles, so hopefully this will help as well.
Anyway my liquid carbon has now arrived and some plants so going to check them out. I did research to liquid carbon toxicity and cant find much, so if I dose the recommend amount I should be ok I hope.
Well Its another day now, but another day where I woke up to a dead fish, so that's not happened for a couple of months, but the same scenario happened as I mentioned earlier in this thread. This fish seemed to act weakened to the others, and singled him self, this has also happened when I've noticed the CO2 symptoms. The fish singles its self out, then loses its ability to swim and then dies, so I was hoping he would make it, but wasn't to be.
I have turned CO2 right down as you know, upped surface agitation to the highest I've ever had, Today I tested my PH with API kit, and it was 7.4, this was like 11:30, so CO2 been on 2 and half hours.
My tap water is normally 8 so I would expect my tank to be just below 8 or at 8, like I said earlier as-well the guy in a shop once went off his rocker when he found my PH at 7. So that's a big PH drop but back then my tank was thriving.
I didn't test to see how low my PH is, I just did a high range PH test. I can't believe its that low, and all I have is a piece of wood in the tank. Well I've decided to make a video and just post it here, so maybe Clive or someone else can see something wrong. I'm totally confused, I have no idea why my tank is crashing, plants don't even grow no more, they produce like a baby leaf then stop, then repeat. I've turned CO2 off now as my FE is nearly empty and I've still not received my new one, but hopefully I get my liquid carbon today, and when I get my new FE I can hook that up. So here is the video and I'm also uploading a video of my old 90 litre I managed to find, its not great, but I just wanted to show how my plants have grown before, and I sadly could not find any with my 200 litre tank, as I've once had this tank a massive jungle, the plants would just go berserk to the point the tank was complete dark inside. Which was my aim since I have rasbora espei, and as you can see now its empty and looks half dead. Ignore the GSA on one of my leafs, and the hair algae on the wood, this has appeared weeks back, and I left that one leaf as I had already cut many, and the wood I need to clean. I need to replant the uprooted cutting, as I've tried to propagate many plants into more, the crypts were huge but now you can see I've split them and threw the rest away. So it looks more bare but there's now more individual plants in there, I did this with most of the plants and also binned all plants that had the worse diatoms on from a few weeks back. I hope the video gives some kind of idea or help to my problems.
Also most of my fish now swim with there heads down, so at an angle. I also read this can be swim bladder, I'm not sure if its CO2 toxicity leading to swim bladder. I've not fed in 4 days. Later I will feed. The problems are not as bad now I've lowered CO2 and timed it to switch of earlier, but not happy about how my fish are swimming, and for the video I had just switched the CO2 on to show you the distribution even though the diffuser could do with bleaching again as its not much of a mist but still reaching all areas of the tank, not sure if the video does it justice and also its at 1bps. Also you can't see it much but the rummy noses in that video were breathing a bit more rapid already its like they know when the diffuser is on, its hardly noticeable, but if I left that on for say 5 hours, they would go in a corner and gasp rapidly. Something ain't right and once again all 3 clown loaches were hiding under the filters which you can't see as there inside them lol, but they say bigger fish are more prone to the toxicity? and I'm already sure one cant balance right.
Here are couple images I had when I was selling some mini water lettuce on ebay, you can see some of the growth from other plants/leafs and once again my tank was thriving back then. But sadly I have no pictures of the tank its self.
http://oi59.tinypic.com/28chg9h.jpg
http://oi59.tinypic.com/v5vdah.jpg
I found a video of me feeding my fish like a year or two ago on my Fluval roma 90, and once again not full tank but you can see the plants were great and always reaching the surface.
Oh also forgot, Next week I am going to buy a PH meter from amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Waterproof-Temperature-automatic-Calibration-Screwdrivers/dp/B005LDT5NE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1394802182&sr=8-1&keywords=ph meter
Other wise we will be going around in circles, so hopefully this will help as well.
Anyway my liquid carbon has now arrived and some plants so going to check them out. I did research to liquid carbon toxicity and cant find much, so if I dose the recommend amount I should be ok I hope.
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Hi all,
A lot of people won't agree with me, but I can't really see any advantage to CO2 for the majority of planted tank keepers.
For me the main problem is that, however careful you are, there is the ever present risk of asphyxiating your fish. As well as the problems with direct toxicity, you have sub-lethal effects on your fauna as well.
Added CO2 allows you to grow plants that aren't really adapted to under-water life submerged, and it promotes plant growth when other nutrients aren't limiting. The pay-off is that you need to do a lot more maintenance to keep your tank in balance, and if things go wrong, they go wrong really quickly.
This is fine if you want to enter aquascaping contests, or you have a burning desire to re-scape your tank every couple of weeks, or just love gadgets, but my suspicion would be that, even on this forum, most of us don't.
Personally I don't want quick plant growth, I want a stable, resilient tank that provides a healthy environment for the fish.
If I go away for a couple of weeks, I want to come back to tank where both plants and fauna look pretty much how they did when I left them.
If my tanks look much the same this year as they looked last year I regard that as a success.
How can you achieve this? It really is as simple as have a lot of plants, including floater and/or emergents, and only add any nutrients when the plants need them, via the "Duckweed Index" : <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/low-maintainence-long-term-sustrate.14400/>.
It is a KISS solution, and it works.
cheers Darrel
A lot of people won't agree with me, but I can't really see any advantage to CO2 for the majority of planted tank keepers.
For me the main problem is that, however careful you are, there is the ever present risk of asphyxiating your fish. As well as the problems with direct toxicity, you have sub-lethal effects on your fauna as well.
Added CO2 allows you to grow plants that aren't really adapted to under-water life submerged, and it promotes plant growth when other nutrients aren't limiting. The pay-off is that you need to do a lot more maintenance to keep your tank in balance, and if things go wrong, they go wrong really quickly.
This is fine if you want to enter aquascaping contests, or you have a burning desire to re-scape your tank every couple of weeks, or just love gadgets, but my suspicion would be that, even on this forum, most of us don't.
Personally I don't want quick plant growth, I want a stable, resilient tank that provides a healthy environment for the fish.
If I go away for a couple of weeks, I want to come back to tank where both plants and fauna look pretty much how they did when I left them.
If my tanks look much the same this year as they looked last year I regard that as a success.
How can you achieve this? It really is as simple as have a lot of plants, including floater and/or emergents, and only add any nutrients when the plants need them, via the "Duckweed Index" : <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/low-maintainence-long-term-sustrate.14400/>.
It is a KISS solution, and it works.
cheers Darrel
Cheers Darrel for your input.
I read the thread you provided but am still not that clued up with the "Duckweed Index" I get the concept and I presume I just look at the duckweed and that will let me know what nutrient to add etc, and as there floating they can get access to CO2.
I know you like your science lol, as most replies I've read from you in other threads, my head just explodes lol so go easy with me lol, but I'm a bit confused as from what I know the plants need a source of carbon other wise they won't grow efficiently and then the plant will look for food else where and eats its self alive kind of thing as it needs carbon to make use of the other nutrients? So how does that work? I can't see where they will get the CO2 from, as unlike the floating duckweed they don't have much access to CO2 apart from what the fish produce, and if its a large heavily planted tank, surely the plants will show deficiencies?
I also would like a tank with a healthy environment, I just presumed the whole pressurized CO2 does that, as it makes the plant's grow better there for producing more oxygen during the day. I'm not sure to give up with everything I've learned regarding CO2 and EI, to then try the Duckweed Index, does it take more skill or knowledge, as if you miss a deficiency on the duckweed the plants might start to suffer before I have had time to figure out the deficiency, then the algae will attack, also I see floating plants don't like much surface agitation, on the pictures above I posted I had to have minimum surface agitation for the water lettuce to grow.
Natureboy, I know having high CO2 = fish dying, and turning it down they don't.. its the whole reason for this thread, what's happening? this tank use to be fine at a higher bubble rate, the whole gasping thing is now happening with lower bubble rates, I'm not sure if its because of less plant mass in the tank, so therefore to much CO2 is staying in the water column, or increasing during the day.
Regarding low range ph, I don't see the need for me to do that test, I have high KH I think last time it was around 12 KH, and the lowest I've had is 8KH, so If I'm correct at say 12KH I should probably only need a 0.5 drop, so I already know from high range ph I've got a 0.6 drop, why would it matter if my PH was 7, its obvious something is wrong in my tank, if it were 7 my drop checker would be green, its a blue as it comes. + the api color chart is nearly impossible to determine the low ph, the colours are all the same near enough. So I will wait till I get a ph meter, and I don't understand the LFS permit phrase I'm afraid.
Thanks for the help and replies
I read the thread you provided but am still not that clued up with the "Duckweed Index" I get the concept and I presume I just look at the duckweed and that will let me know what nutrient to add etc, and as there floating they can get access to CO2.
I know you like your science lol, as most replies I've read from you in other threads, my head just explodes lol so go easy with me lol, but I'm a bit confused as from what I know the plants need a source of carbon other wise they won't grow efficiently and then the plant will look for food else where and eats its self alive kind of thing as it needs carbon to make use of the other nutrients? So how does that work? I can't see where they will get the CO2 from, as unlike the floating duckweed they don't have much access to CO2 apart from what the fish produce, and if its a large heavily planted tank, surely the plants will show deficiencies?
I also would like a tank with a healthy environment, I just presumed the whole pressurized CO2 does that, as it makes the plant's grow better there for producing more oxygen during the day. I'm not sure to give up with everything I've learned regarding CO2 and EI, to then try the Duckweed Index, does it take more skill or knowledge, as if you miss a deficiency on the duckweed the plants might start to suffer before I have had time to figure out the deficiency, then the algae will attack, also I see floating plants don't like much surface agitation, on the pictures above I posted I had to have minimum surface agitation for the water lettuce to grow.
Natureboy, I know having high CO2 = fish dying, and turning it down they don't.. its the whole reason for this thread, what's happening? this tank use to be fine at a higher bubble rate, the whole gasping thing is now happening with lower bubble rates, I'm not sure if its because of less plant mass in the tank, so therefore to much CO2 is staying in the water column, or increasing during the day.
Regarding low range ph, I don't see the need for me to do that test, I have high KH I think last time it was around 12 KH, and the lowest I've had is 8KH, so If I'm correct at say 12KH I should probably only need a 0.5 drop, so I already know from high range ph I've got a 0.6 drop, why would it matter if my PH was 7, its obvious something is wrong in my tank, if it were 7 my drop checker would be green, its a blue as it comes. + the api color chart is nearly impossible to determine the low ph, the colours are all the same near enough. So I will wait till I get a ph meter, and I don't understand the LFS permit phrase I'm afraid.
Thanks for the help and replies
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Cheers Bigtom, so could I achieve better results with just dosing liquid carbon? and removing all my CO2 set up? I am not after pearling or growth rates, I am after plants that will grow at there own speed, stay healthy. Overall a medium-heavily planted tank with happy fish that I can sit down and enjoy. I have achieved this before with this tank and my previous tank, and I was using pressurized CO2 then, but its just coming to much of a challenge at this moment in time.
Well, I don't know about 'better' results, but certainly good results, and I meant with no carbon dosing at all - neither CO2 nor liquid carbon. But you can still grow plants - here's a couple of shots of my tank that has a pondsoil and sand substrate, no carbon addition of any sort and practically no fert dosing - you just need a bit more patience.
Cheers Tom,
I did see your tank in your journal of bucket of mud, while there was so many pages I didn't exactly read it all lol, I thought you was using some kind of fertilized soil but obviously not, which I don't know much about all CEC substrates etc. I didn't know it was just pond soil and sand. I use Eco complete.
So I guess it can be achieved, I guess it explains why the plants in my girlfriends shrimp tank grow better than in my tank, and its in the same house, no CO2, no ferts nothing. I just don't want algae to appear if I stop with CO2 all together as that's the one thing that does sometimes appear in my girlfriends tank.
I did see your tank in your journal of bucket of mud, while there was so many pages I didn't exactly read it all lol, I thought you was using some kind of fertilized soil but obviously not, which I don't know much about all CEC substrates etc. I didn't know it was just pond soil and sand. I use Eco complete.
So I guess it can be achieved, I guess it explains why the plants in my girlfriends shrimp tank grow better than in my tank, and its in the same house, no CO2, no ferts nothing. I just don't want algae to appear if I stop with CO2 all together as that's the one thing that does sometimes appear in my girlfriends tank.
The soil does contain fertilisers, but others have used fert-free brands of soil with good results also. But I add very little additional ferts - I bought 500ml of TNC Macro+micro fert mix about 4 years ago which has just run out this month. Eco complete should be fine. I just wanted to demonstrate that healthy plant growth isn't terribly difficult without adding carbon. This tank is almost completely algae free as well - obviously it must contain spores but everything is so stable that all I see is a tiny amount of green spot on the glass that needs cleaning about once every 2-3 months.
Hi all,
If the plants show deficiencies I feed them, but for long periods all the nutrients they receive will be from water changes (~10% a day). I use regular water changes and I run a venturi on the filters, to try and ensure a large gas exchange surface. Gas exchange is they key, it equilibrates atmospheric gas levels with dissolved gas levels.
Have a look at "BigTom"
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/toms-bucket-o-mud-cryptpocalyspe.14521/> and"Alistair"s <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/a-chocolate-puddle.21327/> journals, they have wide shallow low tech tanks they really are extraordinary.
cheers Darrel
The submerged plants get their CO2 by diffusion from the atmosphere, this only amounts to ~1ppm, but aquatic plants are adapted for those sorts of CO2 levels.
If the plants show deficiencies I feed them, but for long periods all the nutrients they receive will be from water changes (~10% a day). I use regular water changes and I run a venturi on the filters, to try and ensure a large gas exchange surface. Gas exchange is they key, it equilibrates atmospheric gas levels with dissolved gas levels.
Have a look at "BigTom"
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/toms-bucket-o-mud-cryptpocalyspe.14521/> and"Alistair"s <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/a-chocolate-puddle.21327/> journals, they have wide shallow low tech tanks they really are extraordinary.
cheers Darrel
Cheers Tom you definitely demonstrated that, and your tank looks amazing.
Like I said above I just thought plants required Carbon, and I must be incorrect, I just thought I read somewhere if the chain is broken, then the plant won't grow properly and will start to die as it cant benefit from the nutrients, for example CO2 deficiencies might start to occur then followed by other deficiencies, but obviously that cant be entirely true.
I just read your reply Darrel, thanks for explaining about the CO2, that pretty much answers my above sentence.
I will also take a look at the journals and give them another read when I get some time as there many pages long.
I might carry on how I am regarding EI, and just give the liquid carbon a try, seeing as I've purchased it now. But if I stop all carbon, can I just continue dosing EI with 50% water changes at end of the week? or could I lower my dose by half for example, then maybe do 25% weekly water changes? and just monitor plants.
( I will also look into the duckweed index a bit more as well) but I find these plants don't do great with much surface agitation, + my tank produces quite a bit of condensation which also rots them, but I've pulled it off before with water lettuce.
Like I said above I just thought plants required Carbon, and I must be incorrect, I just thought I read somewhere if the chain is broken, then the plant won't grow properly and will start to die as it cant benefit from the nutrients, for example CO2 deficiencies might start to occur then followed by other deficiencies, but obviously that cant be entirely true.
I just read your reply Darrel, thanks for explaining about the CO2, that pretty much answers my above sentence.
I will also take a look at the journals and give them another read when I get some time as there many pages long.
I might carry on how I am regarding EI, and just give the liquid carbon a try, seeing as I've purchased it now. But if I stop all carbon, can I just continue dosing EI with 50% water changes at end of the week? or could I lower my dose by half for example, then maybe do 25% weekly water changes? and just monitor plants.
( I will also look into the duckweed index a bit more as well) but I find these plants don't do great with much surface agitation, + my tank produces quite a bit of condensation which also rots them, but I've pulled it off before with water lettuce.
I've done some research about EI dosing with out CO2, and it seems to be getting more confusing. I've read you don't do water changes as the increase in CO2 will then cause algae because the plant has adapted to low CO2, but because I am going to be using liquid carbon, I presume I can carry on with my water changes? and my current EI dosing? or am I going to need to lower my EI dosing by say 1/2? and also do water changes less often?
If I'm being honest I cant digest some information, its hard to understand things like carbonates, ions, + Ca or what ever all this data means, these are just things of the top of my head lol, but some stuff on here is very scientific I don't have any hope. I get some of it, but some of the things such as other ions make other ions act different or some stuff I read my brain don't get it lol, I have no idea how some of you have learnt the stuff you have, I feel way out my league, I didn't know it was going to be so hard.
Now I'm going down the low tech route that gets confusing as-well, I read here: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2817-Non-CO2-methods
Which mentions about water changes, but because I will be using Carbon I presume I can continue water changes. Which leads me to here:
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/4266-Hybrid-methods-fusing-dry-start-excel-with-non-CO2
So I presume I need to carry on dosing how I do now, with weekly water changes? and eventually I can lower my water changes more, but I would also need to lower my dosing, how much should I lower my EI dosing now I am only using liquid carbon? can I keep my dosing as it is and continue with 50% w.c a week, or should I half my EI dosing and stick to 50% w/c or should I just lower everything? but if I do water changes every two weeks or once a month, GSA appears on my glass, so I don't want to be viewing that. Its like I need to teach my self everything over again.
At the moment I dose for my 200 litre tank:
1/4 Trace Mix 2x a week,
1/4 KH2PO4 3x a week
2/4 KNO3 3x a week
3/4 MgSO4.7H2O 3x a week
Will it be ok to keep that the same and just use liquid carbon? I guess the nutritents wont build up as I will be doing 50% weekly, so my plants will always have more than enough, but am worried with the 50% water changes and CO2 fluctuation coming in from the water, will it cause algae?
Sorry for the essay, I feel completely lost on what to do, I only learnt about this hobby when I found a thread about DIY yeast CO2, then I learnt about EI, and now this is all new to me, especially now for the first time I will just be using liquid carbon. I also have not yet read the journals so maybe my answers lay there, but I have read the Tom bar threads, and am still a bit confused on what my weekly routing should be, regarding dosing, water changes.
If I'm being honest I cant digest some information, its hard to understand things like carbonates, ions, + Ca or what ever all this data means, these are just things of the top of my head lol, but some stuff on here is very scientific I don't have any hope. I get some of it, but some of the things such as other ions make other ions act different or some stuff I read my brain don't get it lol, I have no idea how some of you have learnt the stuff you have, I feel way out my league, I didn't know it was going to be so hard.
Now I'm going down the low tech route that gets confusing as-well, I read here: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2817-Non-CO2-methods
Which mentions about water changes, but because I will be using Carbon I presume I can continue water changes. Which leads me to here:
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/4266-Hybrid-methods-fusing-dry-start-excel-with-non-CO2
So I presume I need to carry on dosing how I do now, with weekly water changes? and eventually I can lower my water changes more, but I would also need to lower my dosing, how much should I lower my EI dosing now I am only using liquid carbon? can I keep my dosing as it is and continue with 50% w.c a week, or should I half my EI dosing and stick to 50% w/c or should I just lower everything? but if I do water changes every two weeks or once a month, GSA appears on my glass, so I don't want to be viewing that. Its like I need to teach my self everything over again.
At the moment I dose for my 200 litre tank:
1/4 Trace Mix 2x a week,
1/4 KH2PO4 3x a week
2/4 KNO3 3x a week
3/4 MgSO4.7H2O 3x a week
Will it be ok to keep that the same and just use liquid carbon? I guess the nutritents wont build up as I will be doing 50% weekly, so my plants will always have more than enough, but am worried with the 50% water changes and CO2 fluctuation coming in from the water, will it cause algae?
Sorry for the essay, I feel completely lost on what to do, I only learnt about this hobby when I found a thread about DIY yeast CO2, then I learnt about EI, and now this is all new to me, especially now for the first time I will just be using liquid carbon. I also have not yet read the journals so maybe my answers lay there, but I have read the Tom bar threads, and am still a bit confused on what my weekly routing should be, regarding dosing, water changes.
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Or you could stop worrying about all those numbers by stopping liquid carbon dosing, stopping EI dosing and just dosing now and then when the plants tell you they need some (Darrel's 'Duckweed Index'). I have no agenda or particular reason to try and convert you to low tech, but going high tech (which includes dosing liquid carbon) seems to be causing all kinds of stress and confusion which you could completely forget about with a low tech approach.
Plant plants, feed fish, change a little water now and again. Don't blast them with too much light. Doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.
Entirely up to you of course and there are plenty of high-tech gurus on here who can hopefully help you out if you decide to stick with high tech.
Plant plants, feed fish, change a little water now and again. Don't blast them with too much light. Doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.
Entirely up to you of course and there are plenty of high-tech gurus on here who can hopefully help you out if you decide to stick with high tech.
Cheers Tom
I would like to use my liquid carbon, as I do want some kind of growth rates, don't get me wrong I don't want to go high tech, I cant go high tech, my lights are not even in the low light on the par graph which is around on this forum somewhere. I didn't know CO2 etc was regarded as high tech, I actually thought low tech was using liquid carbon, I see people with 30 litres etc always mentioning they use liquid carbon, I didn't realize I could use 4ml of liquid carbon on my 200 litre, that will last me ages. So that's why I purchased some and it seems easier/safer for now, but Its not as effective as gas CO2, so not sure what to do with my dosing and water changes.
If I take the approach you mentioned above, how much slower is growth going to be? I mean I might be underestimating this low tech approach, is it literally like sit back and do hardly anything? how long will it take for plants to thrive and spread into a jungle, like the picture of your tank? I use to have to prune weekly, which is kind of what I want. Like I say I didn't know high tech was CO2 and EI, I thought that was more to do with high light, there for the whole Light>CO2>Nutrients>Organic Waste chain would speed up, requiring more maintenance etc, so "high tech"
Its not about converting me lol, so I honestly don't mind, its just I want a tank that's going to grow plants and that's not going to take 2 weeks to produce one leaf, like I say I don't know how slow low tech is.
Is there anything in the middle between low tech and high tech lol?
Is there a thread specifically on (Darrel's 'Duckweed Index'). so I can understand it a bit better, as I would rather not wait for deficiencies to show up then dose as I'm not the best at knowing what deficiency is what, I would rather have some level in the tank so I know that won't ever be a issue.
Cheers again.
I would like to use my liquid carbon, as I do want some kind of growth rates, don't get me wrong I don't want to go high tech, I cant go high tech, my lights are not even in the low light on the par graph which is around on this forum somewhere. I didn't know CO2 etc was regarded as high tech, I actually thought low tech was using liquid carbon, I see people with 30 litres etc always mentioning they use liquid carbon, I didn't realize I could use 4ml of liquid carbon on my 200 litre, that will last me ages. So that's why I purchased some and it seems easier/safer for now, but Its not as effective as gas CO2, so not sure what to do with my dosing and water changes.
If I take the approach you mentioned above, how much slower is growth going to be? I mean I might be underestimating this low tech approach, is it literally like sit back and do hardly anything? how long will it take for plants to thrive and spread into a jungle, like the picture of your tank? I use to have to prune weekly, which is kind of what I want. Like I say I didn't know high tech was CO2 and EI, I thought that was more to do with high light, there for the whole Light>CO2>Nutrients>Organic Waste chain would speed up, requiring more maintenance etc, so "high tech"
Its not about converting me lol, so I honestly don't mind, its just I want a tank that's going to grow plants and that's not going to take 2 weeks to produce one leaf, like I say I don't know how slow low tech is.
Is there anything in the middle between low tech and high tech lol?
Is there a thread specifically on (Darrel's 'Duckweed Index'). so I can understand it a bit better, as I would rather not wait for deficiencies to show up then dose as I'm not the best at knowing what deficiency is what, I would rather have some level in the tank so I know that won't ever be a issue.
Cheers again.
So here is my tank immediately after planting, and then 8 months later. By that time it was totally overgrown and had been for quite some time. So reckon maybe 4-6 months for plants to really fill in. Obviously that'll depend a bit on what plants you have. Most of my favourite plants (ferns, crypts) are quite slow growing. Stuff like Hydrocotyle tripartita is rampant however.
The tank had essentially no maintenance in that time. I don't trim, I rarely dose and I change about 10% of water weekly. That's it.
The concept for Darrel's duckweed is explained incredibly simply in post #10 of this thread - http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/low-maintainence-long-term-sustrate.14400/. Basically you just watch the plants and as soon as you seen any sign of holes, yellowing, etc dose a small amount of all-in-one fert. Or you could just dose a small amount weekly... maybe 1/10th EI or something, although I barely use anything.
