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Seeking advice- HC in low tech?

Sacha

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2014
Messages
992
Location
London
I have started an emersed tank:

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/sachas-emersed-adventure.32879/

And it seems to be doing well. The plants have all rooted and the HC is starting to grow.

The thing is, my nerite snail in my main Co2 tank is not doing well. He doesn't like the acidic Co2- enriched water. I want to get him into some harder water ASAP.

(the main tank uses RO. I would want to get him into a tank with my tap water, which is super hard)

So what I want to do is flood the emersed tank, and put the snail in there. I'm just worried that this will kill all my HC. I plan on doing daily water changes on the tank for at least a few weeks. This is because there is no filter or heater, and the substrate (Eco complete) leeches ammonia into the water column.

Can this be reasonably done? If the HC does die, it's not a complete disaster, as long as it doesn't cause an ammonia spike that kills the snail.

I know it sounds silly, but my number one priority is getting this snail healthy, it's not nice seeing his shell cracking up.

Any advice?

Cheers.
 
Hc can sometimes be grown low tech. I would think you would need to add some co2 for the transition to immersed growth though.
I grew it in my 35l under medium to high lighting and just used 2x liquid carbon dose and 1/3 ei so that could be an option
You could just raise the KH in your high tech a little, so its more suitable for your snail
 
As I understood it, they need calcium and alkaline water. Even if I put lots of calcium in there and raise the GH, if the water is acidic, it will still erode their shell?

I would prefer to keep him in there but I don't see how it's viable with acidic water.
 
I copied and pasted the below from an article on the effects of acidic rain on aquatic systems.
AFFECTS ON AQUATIC SYSTEMS
Mollusks - snails and clams.
- these invertebrates are highly sensitive to acidification because of their shells which are either calcite or aragonite (both forms a CaCO3) which they must take from the water.
- in Norway, no snails are found in lakes with a pH of less than 5.
- of 20 species of fingernail clams, only 6 were found in lakes with pH of less than 5.
Arthropods
- crustaceans are not found in water with a pH less than 5.
- crayfish are also uncommon in water where the pH is less than 5. This is an important consideration because crayfish are an important food source for many species of fish.
- many insects also become rare in waters with a pH less than 5.
Amphibians
- as you may know, many species of amphibians are declining. To what extent acid rain is contributing to this decline is not exactly known. However, one problem is that in places like northeastern North America amphibians breed in temporary pools which are fed by acidified spring meltwater. In general, eggs and juveniles are more sensitive to the affects of acidity.
Zooplankton in lakes
- changes in diversity among zooplankton have been noted in studies carried out in lakes in Ontario, Canada. These studies found that in lakes where the pH was greater than 5 the zooplankton communities exhibited diversities of 9 - 16 species with 3 - 4 being dominant. In lakes where the pH was less than 5, diversity had dropped to 1 - 7 species, with only 1 or 2 dominants.
Periphytic algae
- many acidified lakes exhibit a large increase in the abundance of periphytic algae (those that coat rocks, plants and other submerged objects). This increase has been attributed to the loss of heterotrophic activity in the lake (i.e., the loss of both microbial and invertebrate herbivores in the lake).
Fish
- as a result of acidification, fish communities have suffered significant changes in community composition attributed to high mortality, reproductive failure, reduced growth rate, skeletal deformities, and increased uptake of heavy metals.
Mortality
- effects on embryos and juveniles:
- Atlantic salmon fry have been observed to die when water with pH < 5 was introduced into breeding pools.
- in fish embryos, death appears to be due to corrosion of epidermal cells by the acid. Acidity also interferes with respiration and osmoregulation. In all fish at a pH of 4 to 5 the normal ion and acid/base balance is disturbed. Na+ uptake is inhibited in low pH waters with low salinity. Small fish are especially affected in this way because due to their greater ratio of body and gill surface area to overall body weight, the detrimental ion flux proceeds faster.
- in all fish low pH water causes extensive gill damage. Gill laminae erode, gill filaments swell, and edemas develop between the outer gill lamellar cells and the remaining tissue.
- at pH <3 coagulation of mucus on gill surfaces clogs the gills, which leads to anoxia and subsequent death.
Reproductive Failure
Reproductive failure has been suggested as the main reason for fish extinction due to acidity. In Ontario, Canada it was observed that in acidified lakes female fish did not release ova during mating season. When examined, the fish were found to have abnormally low serum calcium levels which appears to have disrupted their normal reproductive physiology.
Growth
Growth may increase or decrease depending on resistance of a species to acidity. For resistant species, growth can increase due to the loss of competing non-resistant species. On the other hand, growth can decrease due to increase in metabolic rate caused by sublethal acid stress. In this case the organism's rate of oxygen consumption goes up because the excess CO2 in the water increases the blood CO2 level which decreases the oxygen carrying capacity of the hemoglobin.
Skeletal Deformity
This occurs in some fish as a response to the lowered blood pH caused by increase in CO2 described above. Bones decalcify in response to a buildup of H2CO3 in the blood as the body attempts to maintain its normal serum osmotic concentration (i.e., the body attempts to return to a normal blood pH level).

The only thing I'd add personally is that a GH test tests for total calcium and magnesium levels including oxidized ones that are no longer useful to inhabitants and plants, etc.. which eventually happens if not replaced. Similar to why iron is not always available to plants because it's oxidized very fast by the oxidizers present in tank water. So a GH reading of any amount does not indicate absolutely anything useful. Eroding snail shells on another hand indicate the water is lacking non-oxidized calcium and is too high in oxidizers that extract the only available free electrons around left which happen to be from the calcium in the poor snail shells.
So maybe it's time to add some to the tank or do water changes with water that contains some.
I wouldn't worry about soft and hard water for fish and what the tests show, but rather what your inhabitants tell you by their health.
Similar to copper and shrimp. High amounts of copper kills shrimp, lack of any copper kills shrimp too as they use Hemocyanin for oxygen transport and immune system defence which is a copper containing protein.
 
So are you saying that if I add some non- oxidised calcium, this will compensate for the acidic water, and the carbonic acid from Co2?
I thought that no matter how much calcium is in the water, if it is acidic, the shells will always erode?
In what form should I add the calcium?
 
I thought that no matter how much calcium is in the water, if it is acidic, the shells will always erode?
In what form should I add the calcium?

Not necessarily. You can have eroded snail shells in a high Gh and high Ph which is considered hard water. The problem is the reading for Ca and Mg may not be available to anyone as it's oxidized so it needs replacing. If the aquarium water you add via water changes is naturally lacking them, then it doesn't have enough to keep a balance. You need to find a balance where the snail shells are no longer eroded without going excessive and shift the balance the other way.
 
I remineralise my RO with a mix of tap water and JBL Aquadur. I'd like to add some extra calcium to the RO at water changes. Is this easy to do?
 
But the snail comes out of the water about 2 hours after the gas comes on, and he goes back into the water a couple of hours after the gas goes off. That's because the water is alkaline at night, but acidic during the day.
 
Right, so the only important thing is calcium? Is it straightforward just to add more calcium to the water change?
 
I only want to add calcium. I don't want to add any carbonate or other minerals. I don't want harder water, just more calcium
 
Basically I want to have just enough calcium for the snail to be healthy, in the softest possible water. I do not want to increase the water hardness. That's why I was asking if I could just add calcium and nothing else
 
I suppose you can. The problem is that calcium may not be the only problem.
The reason the snail shells are eroding could be the general lack of any reducers in the water to keep up with the oxydizers, or too many oxidizers so they got to the place where they found themselves some reducer such as the snail. There's a stage when soft water is no longer a good thing to any inhabitant. Calcium is a reducer so it should help and is a requirement for snails but it's hard to know which form of calcium would have an effect on the snail and whether it would get to the snail first and not oxidize in the water and get consumed by plants or react with something else first.
You can also try feeding the snail with something rich in calcium but it depends whether it goes for it or not.
Or try low amounts of calcium in the water as you suggested and see how it goes. I've kept snails in softish water without snail erosion so they don't need that much at all, but how they extract it from the water is not something I am certain of.
 
Thanks again for all the advice. I really appreciate it. Can you recommend something rich in calcium that I can feed?
 
Not anything that I've tried personally because I normally add small dead coral pieces as I am not worried about altering my water although the effect is exaggerated when it comes to changing the stats from my personal experience. There are vegetables that contain higher calcium levels which you can try but can't recall of the top of my head and not sure they'll have enough in them either to make a difference. There are calcium enriched fish foods too.
 
Hi, spinach, kale and parsley all contain calcium, try feeding those.
Fern
 
Thanks. Just raw? Don't do anything to them to prepare before feeding?
 
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