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Another user with CO2 Issues

Thank-you ceg4048. Thats great advice so many thanks.
Given my decor layout do you still feel its worth ago with this method?
I think Ive got a perspex spray bar knocking about for the meantime and if not I'll get hold of one. I'll also put the CO2 in-line diffuser on the filter inlet (not something I would have thought to do).

The filter currently has two large baskets above the heating element. One filled with ceramic rings and eheim bio-balls, the other is filled with larger black teatra-tech balls. If i empty one of these do you think this will achieve the increased flow and not sacrifice my biological filtration?

This will all look ugly but aesthetics is not the goal at this time.
I think to be fair with all the equipment in the tank at the moment it wont look any worse :)
 
So i've finally a little luck. Found in my spares box a tetra tech persex spray bar, its 3/4 the length of the tank so I will try and get hold of another spare bit. I'll sort the in line atmomizer too and see how I go!
 
Hi,
Definitely get rid of the noodles. They are by far the worst offenders of flow robbery because they are specifically designed to slow the flow so that heavier particles fall out of solution. You will not sacrifice bio-filtration because that's the job of the plants. When you feed the plants with flow and CO2 they will return more than you will have lost by removing the media. In any case, remove the noodles and leave the balls for the moment.

Mount the spraybar in the center so that there will be space on either end to mount each of the two powerheads. Mount the powerheads even with the bar so that all the flow effluents line up like soldiers all facing towards the front glass. Do NOT mount the powerheads close to the left and right walls, but rather closer to the center of the tank. Try that configuration in combination with the removal of the noodles while pumping the gas into the filter inlet and see how it goes. Take the pH profile if you are home to measure.

The more obstackes you have in the tank, such as stones and plants, the more important it is to use the spraybar and flow in the manner described above.

Cheers,
 
Hello Clive,
My canister goes as follows:

Bottom tray - course -medium - fine foam

Next tray course foam

Next - noodles

Top tray - course foam and finer foam at the top.

If this was your filter how would you configure it?

Also in my tank i have a 1 meter spray bar which is nearly the length of the tank, but either end looses out slightly, I have 2 power heads 1 is the nano 1600 and the other is the korila 3200 although I took this out because it seemed much for my tank.. Maybe I was wrong?

I currently have my nano powerhead on the left hand side pointing to the front (opposite side of intake)
Would you move this to the Centre?


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Cheers Clive. I'll ditch the ceramic media and give this set-up a go at the weekend. Fingers crossed!
 
So I read the thread about usign a spray bar to create a more efficient CO2 distribution and flow. Its worth mentioning that do have a fair amount of decor such as wood and rock so is investing in a spray bar and in-line atmoizer a worthwhile test?
Well that was exactly my situation and that's what I did. Well to be honest I began with a pH profile and then modified some of the things mentioned: spraybar, change to inline atomizer, timings, simplify hardscape, move some plants, change bubble rate and play with different levels of surface rippling. It took me two months to test all this and have a suitable pH drop. Then it took some weeks to notice a significant biomass development. The tank I'm talking about is just 60 cm long but has two medium redmoors
plenty of branches... Beautiful but a nightmare to be my first high tech!

Jordi
 
My canister goes as follows:
Bottom tray - course -medium - fine foam
Next tray course foam
Next - noodles
Top tray - course foam and finer foam at the top.
If this was your filter how would you configure it?
Well, same advice really, ditch the noodles - a vampyric invention designed to suck the life blood out of your filter, leaving it forever in a state of "undead."
I guess if you're a purist, the foam can follow the water path and be in the sequence of coarse to fine. If you use Purigen, or other chemical media like activated carbon (which works great by the way) then it should be the final filtration stage just so that it stays relatively clean. I think Fluval sells foam pads with a carbon layer also.
I really don't fret too much about filter media and sequencing, it's just not worth the energy. Whatever material you put in the filter will develop a bacterial colony - even if the packaging says something different. So noodles do plenty of biological filtration even though they are marketed as "mechanical filtration".
For our purposes it's all just another illusion of The Matrix. We want to maximize flow throughput, because in a CO2 injected tank flow is King. Everything else is a distant secondary concern. Plants quickly uptake NH3/NH4 as nutrition, so we really don't need all that specialty stuff. The higher the plant mass the more thoroughly the job is done - and they pump Oxygen back into the water and sediment, which supports a more efficient bacterial load, so who cares if someone is selling overpriced special magic media with a gazillion square meters of surface area? That has no advantage whatsoever. A fish only tank is a different story because there is no method of NH3/NH4 removal other than the filter media.

So hobbyists coming from a fish only background worry needlessly about the wrong things. Put lots of plants in the tank and do all the things that foster their health. They, in turn, will make the tank healthier.

Also in my tank i have a 1 meter spray bar which is nearly the length of the tank, but either end looses out slightly, I have 2 power heads 1 is the nano 1600 and the other is the korila 3200 although I took this out because it seemed much for my tank.. Maybe I was wrong?
I currently have my nano powerhead on the left hand side pointing to the front (opposite side of intake)
Would you move this to the Centre?
Well, if the output of the powerheads are too strong and cause too much commotion then you can do the opposite of what I advised sonicnija to do regarding their placement. Placing them near the tank walls will neutralize their output somewhat. Another alternative with overpowered pumps is to orient the flow scheme from left/right i.e. across the tank because although the distance is longer, the muscle of the pumps will now carry the energy the longer distance. That means the spraybar can be shorter and thus it too will have a more even pressure across it's now shorter length. There are a couple of ways to skin the cat so just try different schemes and placements. Sure, you could just remove the nano and place the 3200 in the center. The only real rules here are that all effluent should work together and point in the same direction, AND always use the pH profile check to validate any new flow/distribution scheme.

Cheers,
 
So a little update. I've ordered a new bubble counter to attach directly to my reg/solenoid and also an in line atomizer.
These should arrive tomorrow but to get me started and whilst doing a water change I swapped the lily pipe outflow and placed in the spray bar.

Immediately I could already see how the spray bar arrangement creates a predictable flow pattern through the tank, you can track particles in the water through the circular shape when looking through the sides of the aquarium.

Now that I've put the first stage of this change together I have noted a few things.

Firstly the flow seems immense, ive removed all the ceramic dense media from my filter and now the single basket of black plastic balls remains alongside the pre-filter foam. I may have to re-arrange the spray bar higher at some point as its a fixed depth meaning the spray bar sits quite low in the tank. This means that if i angle the spray bar to aim at the front glass i can see some of the water hitting the glass and being deflected up towards the surface, its not easy to explain it but I've drawn the crudest picture ever to illustrate this (its a view from the side of the tank and the circular thing is the spray bar). I'm presuming that this is essentially still pretty inefficient since we want all the CO2 enriched water circling 'under'....but someone may correct me on this.
Also I've noticed that the plants at the rear are getting a little battered by the spray bar so hopefully raising this will help.

In other aquarium news I've raised the lights up to a more sensible height, exciting.

Finally (this is to ceg4048 :)) with the flow being pretty brutal as is it and with me frequently cleaning the filter do you think the additional powerheads are still necessary? I only ask since at the moment it looks like strong flow and that any additional flow might be overkill...?

Thanks again everyone!
 
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Hi mate,
You have mounted the spraybar too low. That's why there is a deflection upwards. The holes of the spraybar should be within 1 tube diameter of the surface, pointing horizontally, NEVER downwards. If the flow is too much then add more filter media. Now, YOU are in control of the flow throughput. You can add really useful media such as activated carbon or Purigen to clarify the water even more.

As plant mass increases, what you now think is immense may soon become inadequate, especially at the lower reaches and corners. The effectiveness of this scheme is determined by how well the plants in the most disadvantaged locations grow. Plants that are sitting behind rocks will need extra flow to overcome their disadvantage even though at other, less critical locations the flow may seem excessive.

In any case, only the plants can answer you question as to whether there is too much, not enough, or just right flow. Try using the spraybar only and then after a few weeks try adding powerheads to see if there is a difference. Number of supplemental pumps or position of filter outflow devices should always be done with geometric symmetry in mind. If adding one extra pump then it should be positioned in the center. If adding two then they should be mounted equidistant from the two end walls and at the same vertical distance. Always avoid placing flow effluent in such a manner as to cause collision or opposing flow.

If you keep these general principles in mind then you will be able to devise any variety of successful flow schemes.

Cheers,
 
Cheers for that. Ive since moved the spray bar up and I'll change the angle when i get home this evening. Like youve suggested i'll see how it goes and add the powerheads furthur down the line if the flow is insufficient.

The filter currently contains a small quanitity of purigen which sits in the otherwise empty filter basket.

Many thanks again, much appreciated.
 
Things are looking up!

Clive, just wondering why you say the spray bar should never be angled downwards?
 
Hi Sacha,
Pointing the bar down defeats the purpose and has the same effect that sonicninja just observed when the bar was mounted too low. We want the front glass to do the work of deflecting the flow downward and to move unimpeded across the sediment towards the back wall. That movement is interfered with when the flow is pointed downward. Movement towards the front wall is reduced and the deflections that occur are not in the preferred direction of down and back.

Cheers,
 
So by that token, you don't want anything to interfere with the directional flow the spray bar provides. Which means adding any power heads is just counter- productive, as they alter the directionality of the circulation?
 
Sometimes the filter throughput in the spraybar is weak and the jets don't quite reach the front glass. In such a case the powerhead flow will push the water along to the front and will drag more flow along with it to the front. Ideally, it would be better to have all the flow coming through the bars, but if that is not possible then the powerheads are the next best thing.
As I mentioned, if the powerheads are pointing in the same direction as the holes then their flows cooperate. It gets deflected by the wall and moves down towards the substrate. If the powerhead is pointed in a way that opposes the spraybar flow then yes, it will be counterproductive. There is always some interference when multiple devices are used. It's just not possible to be perfect, but that isn't the goal. The goal is to maintain an overall movement of water in the tubular shape, over to the front and downwards.

Cheers,
 
Ive purchased an additional section of spraybar so it can sit the entire length of the tank, I could place a powerhead directly underneath it centrally to keep things even.
 
So it's all fully up and going and the in line diffuser connected to the filter in-flow. One thing I have noticed is that there is no misting or fine bubbles on the filter outflow. Is this common for a diffuser like this? I imagine it's because the diffusion rate it good as the CO2 is passing through the filter before entering the tank....?
 
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