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Dosing Macro and Micro on the same day, and add Easylife Ferro. but precipitation?

JayZH

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2014
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57
I've started EI dosing to replace my expensive Tropica Spercialised Ferts.

I've been unhappy with the massive Macro dosing every other day, which increases the NO3 to the range of 60 to 80 ppm for a short period before plants absorbs it. Fish looks stressed. My NO3 reading is as follows: Dosing in the morning, 60 to 80 ppm, in the evening, drops to 20 to 30 ppm, the next day I have to add 1ml Tropica Specialised Ferts to top up the NO3 with the Micro.

I've decided to do Marco and Micro at the same time with half the amount, but read the post the "cheap" Micro will cause Fe precipitation, thus I am thinking adding additional Easylife Ferro. But will Easylife Ferro interact with Marco and causing precipitation as well? Does anyone looked into it?

I hope the above plan will work out. any thoughts would be very much appreciated.
 
Hi there :)

Lol you made my head spinn with all the Macro / Micro :D

Anyway mate I am sure someone will say this but why you makeing yourself trouble and doing it the hard way. Throw your test kit out from the window and just follow the EI dose. If you want to dose it daylly no problem you can calculate it.

Regarding your question yes you should not those Macro and Micro (lol again :D ) at the same time as P makes Fe precipitation as you already know and there should be at least 6 hours differences between the dose so you can dose Macro in morning and Micro in evening. However many dose it at the same time without any problems.

However I will just follow the EI and trow out the test kit as I said... Too much stress and nightmares.
 
Thanks, the 6 hours difference is new to me, I will at least follow the morning Macro, evening Micro routine.

I am doing it the hard way, becasuse one of my serpea tetra I have for well over a year died at lunch time after dosing Macro this morning(second week into dosing). I see other fish are getting stressed. heavy breathing etc, then they were all back to normal in the evening after NO3 dropped to 20 to 30ppm range.

RIP little red guy...

Why P makes Fe precopitate? out of curiosity, what's chemistry formula? This is why I asking for the Ferro dosing question, hoping its a more stable formula of Fe that does not react with P.
 
There is no way your fish dies because of NO3. You need to look elsewhere, and while you are are busy witch hunting NO3 the real culprit goes undetected. And, as mentioned your test kit is lying through it's teeth.

Cheers,
 
Thanks ceg4048. appreciated your input. I've stayed on this forum long enough to know test kit lies and know a lot of people have success with Dosing without killing livestock. ;) I tried two test kits, Both API and Tetratech, I think the tetra one is much better test kit wise.

But I just want to play safe. I don't mind to have precipitation when dosing Marco and Micro together, but I just added commerical Fe to top up the Fe that has been precipitated. But Easylife doesn't actually show which compounds consistitutes their Ferro Ferts. :(
 
but I just added commerical Fe to top up the Fe that has been precipitated.
But that will precipitate out as well ??? The chelated iron in the micro reacts with the potassium phosphate in the macro to form insoluble iron phosphate which precipitates out and becomes unavailable for plant use. You really must dose alternate days to allow phosphate & iron to be used by plants rather than precipitated out.

I tried two test kits, Both API and Tetratech, I think the tetra one is much better test kit wise.
How do you know which one is lying the most ? I suspect you NO3 readings are clearly wrong.

I've had over 350ppm NO3 in my tank for days after a pump failure and fish weren't stressed or worried, I only noticed when the heard the dosing pump running 24/7 and the just refilled 1litre macro container was empty. No change in fish behaviour. You need to look elsewhere for your fish issues.
 
I've had over 350ppm NO3 in my tank for days after a pump failure and fish weren't stressed or worried, I only noticed when the heard the dosing pump running 24/7 and the just refilled 1litre macro container was empty. No change in fish behaviour. You need to look elsewhere for your fish issues.

Wow man! you carried out a really useful experiment for the rest unintentionally. Do you remember the fish you had in there? And how long did you keep those ppm levels in the tank?
 
Do you remember the fish you had in there? And how long did you keep those ppm levels in the tank?
Guppies, cardinal tetras, flying foxes, clown loaches, various coloured mollies, something yellow or other, ottos and numerous other "mid water column" fish. Levels of NO3 that start causing major issues are in the region 1500ppm and higher, so when people say "my fish are suffering due to my high nitrate levels"..I know different.

Reason for the mistake was miss setting the timer for my pump at the weekend and only realising later in the week.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/diy-dual-peristaltic-dosing-pump-with-alternate-switching.22332/

What was annoying was, 50% water change in the morning before work (pumped onto lawn and hose straight into tank), losing 1litre of macro solution and plants not looking super fit and wonderful after such a monster feed.:)
 
Guppies, cardinal tetras, flying foxes, clown loaches, various coloured mollies, something yellow or other, ottos and numerous other "mid water column" fish. Levels of NO3 that start causing major issues are in the region 1500ppm and higher, so when people say "my fish are suffering due to my high nitrate levels"..I know different.

Ok I get this and for fish I believe it. But are CRS actually sensitive to it over 10 ppm? Is tis also a myth and they could go higher? although I bet not as high as fish. Maybe they are just bothered by the change in conductivity.
 
I did a bit of readup on the internet. it appears that Potassium Phosphate is an iron binding agent. Does it mean it is optimal to use other phosphate ferts instead of Potassium Phosphate? Such as Ammonuium Phosphate? or even Iron Phosphate? anybody has any thoughts?

Checked the EasyLife Ferro. it is concentrated Fe II. I guess that will react with Potassium Phosphate as well, will it?

The bottom line is, even for Alternate day dosing, as long as there is surplus Potassium Phosphate, it wil bind any chelated Iron you throw in the next day to let it become inactive. that contridicate the whole point of EI dosing, which is to supply more nurtrient plants needs.

Thoughts?
 
I did a bit of readup on the internet. it appears that Potassium Phosphate is an iron binding agent. Does it mean it is optimal to use other phosphate ferts instead of Potassium Phosphate? Such as Ammonuium Phosphate? or even Iron Phosphate? anybody has any thoughts?
Checked the EasyLife Ferro. it is concentrated Fe II. I guess that will react with Potassium Phosphate as well, will it?
The bottom line is, even for Alternate day dosing, as long as there is surplus Potassium Phosphate, it wil bind any chelated Iron you throw in the next day to let it become inactive. that contridicate the whole point of EI dosing, which is to supply more nurtrient plants needs.
Thoughts?

The tank water dilutes it enough so that not an important ammount precipitates. Dont worry too much about this. That a reaction occurs doesnt mean it happens with a 100% rate of reaction.
 
Such as Ammonuium Phosphate? or even Iron Phosphate?
Ammonium phosphate doesn't exist, even if it did it would add ammonium to the water, not good for fish. Iron phosphate in insoluble in water thus no use for plants.

Potassium Phosphate is an iron binding agent
Other way round iron compounds (chloride normally) are used to precipitate/coagulate phosphate out of water for water purification.
 
Hi Jose. Thanks for your optimism, but chemical reaction still happens in diluted form as long as the chemical is evenly distributed in water column.

It starts to make sense now on the Tropica Specialised Ferts, I always wonder why it contains Ammonium. in addition to Potassium, Nitrate and Phosphate. Obviously they must be using Amonium Phoosphate in place of Potassium Phosphate. so they can keep Fe II stable in the same solution.

Agree? it seems the optimal daily dosing formula would have Ammonium Phosphate.. Then I will have my DIY Tropica Specialised Ferts...
 
You would still have K+ and Fe2+ and PO4 in your tank wouldnt you? Wont it still precipitate. I guess I dont really get it. Can you explain in detail please? Unless the ammonia/um is helping to keep the Fe in its Fe2+ form. I guess we can run a simple test to proof this.
Also are we talking about keeping an all in one fert or about precipitating components in our tank? Tank water and ferts are different media.
 
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Hi Jose

I simply mean in Macro Mix as below,

Potassium Nitrate
Potassium Phosphate
Magnesium Sulphate

Since Potassium Phosphate is the Iron binding agent, replace it with Ammonium polyphosphate, I checked on Wikipedia, its a much better form ferts,100% solvable in water. so you have the below for Macro, Plants loves it, and you can mix the Macro with Micro, and the Iron F2+ will not react with Ammonium polyphosphate.

Potassium Nitrate
Ammonium polyphosphate
Magnesium Sulphate

What do you think?
 
Woow be careful, you are adding ammonium compounds to your water, not good at all as far as fish are concerned. Also will just dissociate into ammonia/ammonium (very bad) and phosphate which will react with the iron chelate and precipitate out as iron phosphate. Also it will raise pH thus releasing the chelated iron even more. You normally store chelated compounds in low pH solutions to keep the iron chelated.

Virtually everyone that tries to deviate from EI "oh I invented this dosing technique..." ends up with issues.

1. Either dose EI properly macro one day, micro another.
2. Make an all on one solution and dose everyday.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm
Follow this recipe 100%, the ascorbic acid and potassium sulphate are NOT optional. One holds the iron chelated and other stops it going mouldy.
 
In solution its the phosphates from the K3PO4 that bind with Fe2+. So youll be replacing the phosphates for polyphosphates. I think this will precipitate Fe2+ as well wont it?
 
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Woow be careful, you are adding ammonium compounds to your water, not good at all as far as fish are concerned. Also will just dissociate into ammonia/ammonium (very bad) and phosphate which will react with the iron chelate and precipitate out as iron phosphate. Also it will raise pH thus releasing the chelated iron even more. You normally store chelated compounds in low pH solutions to keep the iron chelated.

Virtually everyone that tries to deviate from EI "oh I invented this dosing technique..." ends up with issues.

1. Either dose EI properly macro one day, micro another.
2. Make an all on one solution and dose everyday.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm
Follow this recipe 100%, the ascorbic acid and potassium sulphate are NOT optional. One holds the iron chelated and other stops it going mouldy.

This is exactly what I am looking for
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm

A breakdown of Tropica's all in one formula. Thanks!

I think I won't have the energy making a DIY All in One. I will half dose the Marco on alternative day, and the next day top it up with Micro and one 1 ml Tropica Specialised all in one ferts to boost the Macro. All what I have been doing happen to be accidently correct. only need to half the Marco dosing amount.

Cheers, and thanks all for your detailed insights!!!
 
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