• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

Midday lighting pause (siesta) - in tanks without CO2

I have long laughed at that company beginning with a D and their suggestion of a siesta. Not for the reasoning behind a siesta, just their reasoning of imitating tropical thunderstorms which is laughable in terms of being anything other than trying to imitate a natural occurrence.

In terms of tanks with pressurised CO2 injection it is of no use at all unless you haven't got the CO2 sorted out properly.

The real reason behind the idea which is nothing to do with D's suggestion is where a setup is struggling to maintain a good level of CO2, mainly thinking DIY CO2 setups where it is not possible to increase or decrease the CO2 by any margin other than massively up or massively down and also where the level of injection will be pretty inconsistent over the timeframe of the fermentation.

In these cases the siesta may let the CO2 level rise again in that siesta period. Whether it has much effect at all is debatable and to be honest I doubt it has much effect if any. Plants tend to suck in as much as they want in the first few hours of the photoperiod.

You could argue that this would be the same scenario in a 'non CO2' tank but I would suggest not. There would not be that much use of the extra couple of hours in terms of natural gaseous exchange and if you are running a non CO2 tank then you should really be figuring in the fact you are relying on natural equilibrium to maintain that natural amount of CO2 within the water.

So unfortunately I have to 'side' with Ceg and add my 'one voice' to that side of the argument which incidentally is not an anti corporation marketing conspiracy theories. Far from it it is plain and simple an understanding of how the world of marketing works and the artistic licence that goes with marketing. Dennerle suggesting a siesta works is fine because there is no real evidence other than circumstantial to prove it right or wrong. It is the artistic licence they apply with their depiction of imitating thunderstorms being beneficial to sell their product in the same way that lighting manufacturers proclaim their full spectrum aquarium light is better than a general household light, market it as such and price it at a premium price.

You really should not dismiss anyone's opinions in such an abrasive way. You will end up missing out on many facts that are incredibly beneficial if you dismiss those opinions because you think their tone is wrong. Ignore the tone, ignore your suspicions of their intentions and take in what they say. Weight what they say against others and come to your own decisions.

For every question you ask on the internet you will get answers from both sides. They can be both right sometimes but not often and if you go into research wanting to find out if you are right and looking for an answer that agrees with your belief you will find it. Personality should never come into it at all or you will only ever take the views of the polite or the ones that write in a nice way and ignore those that are straight to the point or sharp.
 
Hi TallDragon,
My understanding of the siesta period initially was nothing to do with algae control.
I thought it was a way of having more intense light prior to the days of CO2 injection.
ie. fish produce CO2 overnight, lights come on and CO2 drops as plants use it, then lights off, CO2 builds up until second light period when the plants use it again, allowing either a longer viewing period or more intense light without CO2-depriving your plants.

cheers phil
 
Plants are relatively simple organisms that will continue to grow as long as conditions are right. There is next to no evidence that plants need any rest, they can happily grow 24 hours per day every day providing conditions are right. It just so happens that on our planet they have to endure a daily night cycle. The exception is flowering plants that regulate flowering by reacting to incresing or decreasing photoperiods. Plants do seem to fair better when grown commercially at least, when longer photoperiods at lower light levels rather than high intensity shorter photoperiods.
 
Hi Talldragon,

SuperColey, in post #22 puts it so much better than I can. 'Dead horse' also comes to my mind. There are more obvious and important things to consider if you want a successful planted aquarium.

P
 
Hi TallDragon,
My understanding of the siesta period initially was nothing to do with algae control.
I thought it was a way of having more intense light prior to the days of CO2 injection.
ie. fish produce CO2 overnight, lights come on and CO2 drops as plants use it, then lights off, CO2 builds up until second light period when the plants use it again, allowing either a longer viewing period or more intense light without CO2-depriving your plants.

cheers phil
Now that actually sounds plausible compared to the Dennerle explanation...

P
 
Plants are relatively simple organisms that will continue to grow as long as conditions are right. There is next to no evidence that plants need any rest, they can happily grow 24 hours per day every day providing conditions are right. It just so happens that on our planet they have to endure a daily night cycle. The exception is flowering plants that regulate flowering by reacting to incresing or decreasing photoperiods. Plants do seem to fair better when grown commercially at least, when longer photoperiods at lower light levels rather than high intensity shorter photoperiods.

It's my poor recollection that given a 24h photoperiod, not all plants "grow" constantly ...
I didn't spend much time looking for articles but
At the end of the experiment, shoot mass and yields of plants grown under a 14-hour photoperiod were equal to or higher than plants under continuous light.

Furthermore, in some plant species continuous light induces severe injury, which is only poorly understood so far.
(of course the next step is looking for the mutation that will allow

There seems to be an acceptance on this forum that a 3day blackout to control algae is "correct" (I'm still looking for the offered scientrific evidence ... OK not really ;) ) but any mention of a "siesta" is a fools errand ... though, again I don't see the scientific evidence.

TallDragon asks questions and that is a good thing, I admire his persistence in the face of the jeering crowd.
While it's great to refer back to previous discussions, why not also engage in further discussion :confused: ... it can't be the aspect of repetition :wideyed:

I've not done any sort of "experiments" with siesta, I use it sometimes as it suits me to observe the tank at both ends of the day ... sadly I'm not all that great at growing algae with any consistency despite running lights from 7am - 11 pm (or 6pm - 2am), providing none to erratic CO2, & in general being a crap planted tank aquarist.
I prefer slow growth tanks as I'm too inconsistent to be successful otherwise - though perhaps then I would become a mad algae grower ;)
I've had some awesome successes with algae but only when I've been absent for 2 months so not sure that really counts.

Another Phil offers an intuitive explanation, but it's also quite possible that Dennerle originator had been inspired by daily consistent thunderstorms (spent 2 weeks in Mexico during the season of sunny morning, clouds by 10am, RAIN, cloud, clearing by 3pm & sunny until evening)
 
This place is getting strange lately, why do people get there posteriors in there hands over such simple topics, we are all different alot of us clowns me included and I injoy reading the odd clever clogs joke along with the serious stuff. If you don't like Clive's responses or anyone else's big deal. Read the next one.:) I'm not having a go by the way there just seems to be alot of it lately.:) anyway to the point of my post. we have chose for a while now to run our sons lowtec tank on a split lighting schedule. His light comes on at 6.30am to get the boys up lol. Then off at 8.30am before school. Then back on at 3.30pm until 8.30pm. The reasons for this realy are about saving energy. It works like a bedroom lamp for them when they get up and when they go to bed tank goes out..... Boys it's light out. They never use the bedroom light so it saves energy. Also it gives me a fair few hrs of lights off to change water when they are not home, also being lowtec no co2 I prefer to do it with the lights off. So the benefits are.... They can enjoy the tank when they are home and it saves putting lights on. we have a fair bit of algae but it's all very natural and all inhabitants seem happy, plants grow well too. So I would say it's all down to preference. Our lounge tank is hightech and lights are on at 3.30pm and off at 9.30pm. No pause inbetween. Cheers kirk.
 
Alto - Like I said flowering plants are an exception, but even then the species negatively affected by continous photoperiods seem to be in the minority. Aquatic plants are on the whole much simpler so I would assume less prone to be damaged by continous light. There have been experiments where duckweed has been grown under 24 hr lighting for over a year without any damage at all
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/j150254a004?journalCode=jpchax.2
 
My confusion I suppose, but my impression is that many (most?) of the plants used in the aquarium trade do flower, some emersed & some submersed.

In terms of the linked study, I'd like to see a modern day repetition with biochemical analyses :)
My understanding is that some plants appear to have no negative response to continuous light (though often the studies are focused on crop production so short term rather than following generations), others have relatively "benign" response, others strongly deleterious - with the majority falling in that middle category where biochemical differences are observed.
 
TallDragon, you can find some useful information here, where D.Waldstad explains the main reason for siesta time in non-CO2 tanks. She also gives some proof of this in the form of a chart.
Thanks for the post. Very interesting reading. As I do not plan to use CO2, this is relevant for me.
 
Isnt the Dennerle system tuned toward a low tech tank, therefore a break in the photoperiod in the usual high tech CO2 tank would cause algae.We can replicate nature a little but after all its a glass box we are doing it in.
 
Most systems are tuned to a low - mid light setup. They just perpetuate (or don't deny) the high light method to sell lights.
 
Hi all,
I have all my tanks on a 12 hour day, if I have more PAR I just end up with more plants.

The tanks at home have a split lighting period, coming on from about 06:30 until 11:00 and then from 14:00 until 20:30. The tanks in the lab. don't, and come on at 08:00 and go off at 20:00.

I've not noticed any difference in plant growth or health.

I have a slightly different approach to Diana Walstad in that I like a large gas exchange surface. The advantage is that both dissolved oxygen and CO2 levels will be constantly replenished and/or out-gassed.

Have a look a this thread <""maxing CO2 in low tech..">

cheers Darrel
 
Hi all,
I have all my tanks on a 12 hour day, if I have more PAR I just end up with more plants.

The tanks at home have a split lighting period, coming on from about 06:30 until 11:00 and then from 14:00 until 20:30. The tanks in the lab. don't, and come on at 08:00 and go off at 20:00.

I've not noticed any difference in plant growth or health.

I have a slightly different approach to Diana Walstad in that I like a large gas exchange surface. The advantage is that both dissolved oxygen and CO2 levels will be constantly replenished and/or out-gassed.

Have a look a this thread <""maxing CO2 in low tech..">

cheers Darrel
Darrel, how big is your tank? And how many watts / lumens are you using! I fear that with a 64l tank and a 2x24w T5 lumiere I will not use 12 hours like you. Thanks for the link.
 
Oh the fun we've all had discussing these issues in the past, and now we get to share again...it's the forum that just keeps on giving...:p
I think perhaps Tom Barr sums up the siesta period rather sucintcly here...http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...asurements-in-a-non-co2-enriched-planted-tank
I think also that a combination of Darrel's method, Diana's siesta period and decomposing organic matter in the soil may cover all the bases with regards CO2 in a low-energy tank.
 
Oh the fun we've all had discussing these issues in the past, and now we get to share again...it's the forum that just keeps on giving...
I think perhaps Tom Barr sums up the siesta period rather sucintcly here...http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...asurements-in-a-non-co2-enriched-planted-tank
I think also that a combination of Darrel's method, Diana's siesta period and decomposing organic matter in the soil may cover all the bases with regards CO2 in a low-energy tank.
Hi Troi I am glad you are enjoying the open discussion. What is your personal experience trying the midday break?
 
Darrel, how big is your tank? And how many watts / lumens are you using! I fear that with a 64l tank and a 2x24w T5 lumiere I will not use 12 hours like you. Thanks for the link.
Wow that's some wattage...you may find that half of that and a 6 hr photoperiod will still be too much, at least to start with and without Darrel's massive biomass to soak it all up.
Hi Troi I am glad you are enjoying the open discussion. What is your personal experience trying the midday break?
Well it's like Tom said really...but as I'm too lazy or otherwise too preoccupied to quantify the anecdotal I tend to try and cover all the bases, as suggested above.
But that's part of the fun experimenting and learning what works not just from success but also from failure...
And to make matters even more complicated what works for one aquarium may not work for another even though you may think you've pretty much replicated all the variables.
Sooo...give it a go and see where the journey takes you, you've certainly got enough here and in the tutorials section to give you a good start.
 
Back
Top