Hard Water and phosphate troubles -HELP PLEASE-

[parotet]

Hi all

I think this issue has been directly or indirectly discussed in different threads. IMO the problem is that most of the times it is difficult to tell if the hobbyist has perfectly tuned his tank before blaming his water hardness.

We've seen in this forum (and in other ones) great planted tanks using liquid rock. But we also have heard many times from very good and experienced aquascapers that 'it is much easier to grow plants on soft water-low KH'. It seems that the classic/popular arguments to justify this (lower CO2 solubility on hard water or nutrient precipitation) are not consistent with scientific evidence. So I guess that, if it is really easier as some experienced aquascapers say, other options should be taken into account.

I've read many times that hard water makes more difficult the stem regrowth once trimmed. Scientific evidence? Don't think so/I don't have enough knowledge, but it may be a path to explore. I've also read that plants simply 'grow better', it is frequently stated for mosses. Not sure if there can be any equivalence with terrestrial plants but with my hard water some species of plants and mosses grow but do not do well until they fade and die. It reminds me that botanists sometimes explain that there are no acidic or alkaline loving plants, but just plants that cannot stand alkaline conditions. Any scientist out there?

Jordi

Edit: I don't have the knowledge but I'm trying to have the experience. One week ago I set up my first soft water tank (nano tank with mixed RO and hard water)... Let's see what happens

 

[Jose]

The problem is that even scientists are many times biased. Look back a few years into the hobby and youll see.

This are Tom Barrs words:
"If that's the case, then just live with other plant species options, I mean there's only about 20-40 species that do poorly in hard KH's, so......with 300-400 species, this is still a massive no#."

If you consider red species which are normally the pickiest, then its probably a big percentage of them that prefer soft water.

 

[Mr. Teapot]

If it contributes to the debate, I found this part explanation to my question about ericaceous terrestrial plants on the google:

"It is not the presence of carbonate or hydroxide ions per se that these plants cannot tolerate, but the fact that under alkaline conditions, iron becomes less soluble."

Could very hard water make it difficult for iron and other nutrients to be available?

 

[parotet]

But that's again the same old debate. The point is not yes/no (use these/those species), but how better/how worse plants grow. I agree in that sense with Tom Barr or Clive that it is much easier to blame your water than sorting out the real problems. In other words, if you are a good aquatic plant keeper you should be able to grow plants in whatever conditions. The point is what makes this supposed slight difference, and obviously it is more difficult to demonstrate as it is very difficult to assess better/worse than survival/death. Muddy waters for objective arguments.

Could very hard water make it difficult for iron and other nutrients to be available?

I don't think so, just add more iron or in with other quelates...

 

[ian_m]

I suspect under high kH conditions people cock up their CO2 levels and plants suffer and they then blame it on the kH rather than poor CO2.

I've read many times that hard water makes more difficult the stem regrowth once trimmed

This could have been my experience, though I cannot write off I had cocked up CO2 levels of course. Was dosing full EI. The replanted stem "just stalled", no new roots, unlike other plants I have cut & replanted, older leaves started getting covered in green algae and virtually no new growth on the crown so it had to go and fertilise the front lawn...

 

[Jose]

I suspect under high kH conditions people cock up their CO2 levels and plants suffer and they then blame it on the kH rather than poor CO2.

This is one of the problems. CO2 is always a possibility when your plants arent growing. So KH might be overlooked as its very easy to show 1 example and say it cannot be KH. Well one example doesnt falsify the theory that the plant might not be growing as it should due to KH.

For example: If we take a Discus and ask the same question? Yes maybe you can find a couple of Discus surviving in very hard water. Does this mean most will do well in it? Many will dye in hard water or have a shortened life span but most will blame it on ammonia, temperature etc. This is whats happening with plants I think (not with discus so maybe a bad example).

 

[Mr. Teapot]

I don't think so, just add more iron or in with other quelates...

I'm really out of my depth, and apologies to the scientists, but a quick google comes up with Fe-EDDHA is stable at pH levels as high a 11 but a lot of the EI dry salts sold only use Fe-EDTA which is stable at pH below 6. Above 6.5, nearly 50% of the iron is unavailable - also this chelate has a high affinity to calcium… all the usual caveats to the above as its just my amateur glances on google.\

 

[Jose]

I'm really out of my depth, and apologies to the scientists, but a quick google comes up with Fe-EDDHA is stable at pH levels as high a 11 but a lot of the EI dry salts sold only use Fe-EDTA which is stable at pH below 6. Above 6.5, nearly 50% of the iron is unavailable - also this chelate has a high affinity to calcium… all the usual caveats to the above as its just my amateur glances on google.\

I wouldnt discard this either. There are really few really high KH tanks that look very good so its really hard to find this out.

Although plants at high KH would show micronutrient defficiencies? and this is not often the case. More common are CO2 defficiency symptons?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Could very hard water make it difficult for iron and other nutrients to be available?

Phosphorus (P), magnesium (Mg) and iron (Fe) will all be less available in hard, calcareous water.

Some of this relates to interference by Ca++ ions, but much of it is to do with insoluble compounds, like iron hydroxides and calcium phosphate complexes, being formed and taking the nutrient out of solution.

This is a particular problem with iron, which is why chelators like EDTA were originally developed for hydroponics.

cheers Darrel

 

[Ghosty]

I think some of you are poor minded, people come in here for advice not for you to spit bullshit at each other, everyone has differant opinions and experiance in a given subject, what some of you need to realise is what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for others, and that's more true when talking about water chemistry and experiance, we all have differant water and plants from differant places grown under differant lights with differant ferts, so the variables as to a problem are vast, and any given person can only speculate and tick of given things in order to come to a solution so please for some of the new people like myself, stop arguing and love each other's wisdom or you will not further your knowledge Rant over

One love

 

[Ghosty]

To original poster

I have hard water and when I started out I found this artical useful
http://freshwateraquariumplants.com/aquariumwaterchemistry.html

Whether it's 100% accurate I have no idea, as Im im a newbie to planted tank I p try to follow a general guideline and fupigure things out as they arise

I do howerever have hard water, how hard I dont know

My bad to comment above, never checked dates, was pretty baked too

My apologies lol

 

[Jose]

Haha no worries Ghosty.