• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

What exactly causes BBA?

Well look at Tom Barrs tanks. Does the concept work? Yes. Is it totally right? Only time will tell. IS it the easiest? I dont think so. Is it the most complete? I think so for now.

Many people struggle with EI. Why is this? I think because its hard to get co2 right. But there are many other things that can go wrong as well. So all this people will think the method doesnt work.
 
Last edited:
Well look at Tom Barrs tanks. Does the concept work? Yes.
This is what I try to point out ["I don't get where this conversation is going." - sciencefiction].
Many people think that Barr's EI works in all cases which just isn't true. Yes, it works in Barr's tank. Yes, it works in other tanks. But there are many tanks where it doesn't work. Why? Because, according to me, Barr's way of explaining the universally working method of EI is just wrong. He has beautiful tanks (no doubt!), but it doesn't mean that they are beautiful exactly because of what he states as the reasons. In other words, he has beautiful tanks, and he thinks that it's because he uses extremely high and stable CO2 together with high nutrients levels. I try to provoke you (by my posts) into thinking about the arguments he (Barr) uses. Are they really correct? For example, Barr says that whenever he lowers his 50-70 ppm concentration of CO2, he gets algae. So he thinks that the algae are "triggered" by low CO2 levels. I just try to show you that the way he explains his success may be wrong. How did he come to the conclusion that low CO2 levels are "causing" algae in his tanks? Did he do any scientific (i.e. correct and well documented) experiments? No! He just says this, and many people indiscriminately believe him. I tried to show you many times (using many different arguments and links) that his way of explaining how things work in our tanks seems to be rather misinterpretations in many cases. He never published detailed methodology of his experiments. Of course, he doesn't need to publish anything, but in that case I just don't believe he's right because he says so. I know many cases of tanks using EI with terrible results. And whenever I confront you with these examples, you just explain it out (too low CO2, phoshates limitation, unstable CO2 levels). So every " enemies' " arguments are just examples of wrong EI use ... you are just not able to accept they may be true. So whenever I show you a tank with low CO2, high PO4, high light and no algae, you explain to me that it's just not possible ... I'm lying ... Barr is right ... and I should do many more experiments to prove I'm right. On the other hand, you never ask Barr to prove that low CO2 really "triggers" algae, that plants are not able to grow well under low CO2 levels etc. In my case you require more experiments results, evidences etc. (although I showed you two tanks - one of mine and one of my friend). In case of T.Barr you seems to content with him saying that his success has to do something with high and stable CO2 levels (without the need of any data). I can not shake the feeling that you like his tank so much that you are just accepting everything he says (regardless of whether it's true or not). Or did you tried to grow plants under low CO2 levels (10-15 ppm), high phosphates (3-7 ppm), and high light (100-150 µmol PAR at the substrate) yourself? I did.
 
My 240L, medium light (apparently) well-filtered, good-flow. quite-well-planted tank has started getting BBA. No CO2, but 6ml of Glute and 3ml of Profito each day.

What should I do PLEASE???

16851428427_21abb7d364.jpg
(Borrowed from the interweb)
 
My 240L, medium light (apparently) well-filtered, good-flow. quite-well-planted tank has started getting BBA. No CO2, but 6ml of Glute and 3ml of Profito each day.
What should I do PLEASE???

See that's the problem. We don't see the tank as a whole. What's your filtration exactly? What's your stocking? What do you feed them, how much, how often? How much and how often do you do water changes? How fast do you remove the damaged by algae plants? Or do you let them stay in there till the maintenance day? Besides algae, are there any other visible plant deficiencies, signs they are not growing as they should?
Although if you really have adequate filtration to the size of the bioload, do water changes weekly, even with suffering plants you won't get algae in a low tech.
What type of plants do you have? Do you have enough fast growing plants or are they all just the typical low tech slow growers like crypts, anubias, java fern....recipe for disaster.
Once the plants are damaged by algae, it's a snowball effect because the plants become bioload too instead of filtering the water and then again, if your filtration is not that good, there's nothing to help bar mechanical removal and large water changes.

What should I do PLEASE
Get ramshorn snails :p

Dose more glute.

Dose macro ferts too.

Don't dose glute at all.


Plenty of choices :rolleyes:
 
What should I do PLEASE???
I'm no expert but I think the following can help. BBA can grow on hardscape and perfectly healthy plants. People get it in high flow areas and low flow dead spots. I think dirt and too much light can give it a chance to get hold. Then you have to kill it, remove it and see if it comes back...

1) Clean your substrate, any dead spots where detritus collects, filter, pipes and tubes.
2) Reduce light by raising lamps, adding floating plants, or if you have an LED controller- turn them down!
3) Do big water changes and apply glute directly to BBA.

No. 3 will kill the BBA for sure but 1 and 2 hopefully will stop it coming back again.

P
 
Hi Ardjuna. I Will stop being a pain after this

1) If a hobiist is not getting good results with ei, this only means he is not applying it correctlY. PLEASE READ ON....

2) Ardjuna, If you have a tank with high phosphates, high light and co2, could you give all the info you can about it Please. I would love to look into this further. Maybe plants can adapt to whichever ppm of co2 just like they do in a low tech. this is not what Ive seen but I havent had very high light tanks either.
 
I don't want to repeat myself as I already said what I wanted to. In my previous posts there's everything one needs to know to judge if there is something on it.

Right now I'm running my tank with lean fertilizing regime, but a few months ago I dosed 3-7 ppm of PO4 together with a full EI recommended values for other nutrients. My friend did not used any liquid macro fertilizer in his tank, but he used DIY substrate with a huge amount of macronutrients in it (using three different garden fertilizers => and if you were there when he loaded the substrate with the fertilizer you would probably say to him that he's really crazy as the amount of fertilizer was just huge!; so no doubt there was a huge amount of NPK for plants in the substrate). So both of us used quite big amounts of nutrients in our tanks, so I would say that plants have nearly non-limiting environment for their growth. You can look at the parameters here under "1. test" and "2. test" (although at that time I used lean fertilizing regime, but you can just substitute the low nutrient values with high nutrient values as couple of months ago I used EI method in this tank with the same results ... only my plants grew faster), and also here under "Method #1". I did quite a few tests with different fertilizing regimes (different nutrient levels + different CO2 levels) with the same tank. I never got algae in there despite the fertilizing regime (except when I raised the light level from 70 to 120 µmol PAR for the first time, but after 10 days the GDA was gone). In most cases I used very high light levels (~100-150 µmol PAR at the substrate, 400-500 µmol PAR at the surface). As I said, I see no correlation between low CO2 levels (10-15 ppm) and algae. If you get algae under 10-15 ppm of CO2, then there are probably some other factors in play.

PS: Please, read the section "Plant responses to limited resources of nutrients" also to see that the Liebig's "law of the minimum" is not the only rule that governs the nutrient uptake in our plants. Maybe you'll finally rethink the concept of nutrient uptake by aquatic plants.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I ask myself this question too. Tom Barrs EI method doesnt necessarily have to be the easiest but it is the most complete for a high tech. Ive had bad results when limitting nutrients before but Im still open to the idea of limitting via phosphates.

And why would you be open to limiting phosphates?
 
Is it not the light that drives the demand for everything the plant's/algae use for growth?
Does anyone think temperature's play a role in metabolisim's of plant's and maybe algae and it's proliferation?
Is there more than one way to grow aquatic plant's?
What makes one an expert?
Why do low tech tanks seem more stable? less problems?
How many folks I wonder, grew plant's in bowls, tubs, long before the advent of fluorescent lights and CO2 injection and or EI or other dosing schemes.?
 
To roadmaster, because this way co2 can be easier to manage. Its not easy to get higher co2 levels in some tanks. If I was to keep discus just as an example.
 
I'd really appreciate an answer from Ardjuna to my questions in post #124. After this long debate about what Tom Barr says and what Ardjuna says, we haven't tackled what this thread was created for: What exactly causes BBA?
 
Hahahahahah
I'd really appreciate an answer from Ardjuna to my questions in post #124. After this long debate about what Tom Barr says and what Ardjuna says, we haven't tackled what this thread was created for: What exactly causes BBA?
so close yet so far Hahahahahah
 
1) If a hobiist is not getting good results with ei, this only means he is not applying it correctlY. PLEASE READ ON....
Jose, I don't want to be impolite, but in this thread as well as in previous threads, you have admitted not having a scientific background, not having a long experience on planted tanks, not having read scientific literature about this topic, not having done your own experiments, not having worked with high lights, having problems with different algae... nothing wrong with all this (most of us are actually in that same situation), but even though you don't want to admit that there may be a different approach to planted tanks management.

As mentioned by Fablau
After this long debate about what Tom Barr says and what Ardjuna says, we haven't tackled what this thread was created for: What exactly causes BBA?
we don't know what exactly causes BBA, because it is probably a combination of different issues difficult to be assessed in our tanks (and that some of us think that goes beyond the very simplistic answer "too much light and/or poor CO2". How important are these other factors, how important is CO2 fluctuations, etc.? We don't know... most of us keep planted tanks as a hobby, we do not have tanks for comparing things or controlling parameters, and honestly I don't feel bad for this. I can keep on enjoying my tanks and I keep on enjoying good threads about this topic in which people with lots of experience, scientific background, experiments done, etc. try to look for new answers.

I'm sorry guys but lately there has been some threads like this one in which the discussion becomes cyclical... don't you think so?

Jordi
 
And why would you be open to limiting phosphates?

I recall reading a good bit of time ago somewhere, possibly 3 years ago, about certain plants having a priority for certain nutrients. This was posted by an aquarist, not a scientist but apparently with long time background in growing aquatic plants for sale, but growing them underwater, not emersed, meaning he couldn't afford to have algae. I can't recall where I read it, I must try to find it but I remember the general idea he explained.

His method is basically to keep the tank to a state of near Green Spot Algae. In order to do that he first induces GSA by dosing just KNO3 which would deplete the PO4. Then he would start dosing PO4 a gram or so a day for a week until the GSA stops growing. On the day of the week that happens, he would calculate back the PO4 amount dosed up to that day, and that would be his weekly dose of PO4. If it doesn't happen on the first week. He'd do a 50% water change, clean GSA daily and then dose double the PO4 a day and monitor till it stops growing. The point being that he doesn't limit PO4, he only limits it to what the particular tank exactly needs, no more, no less.

In his words, some tanks need more phosphorous, some less due to the specific plants. Anubias and microsorums(and some other ones I can't remember) he says have a priority consumption for phosphorous for example and such tanks may need more phosphate.

The reason he "limits" PO4 this way, is to limit the CO2 demand. But he said he doesn't really limit the PO4. What he would limit or not overdose is potassium because extra potassium would drive nitrate to 0 at times which would cause algae.

He applied same method for other types of algae and other nutrients I can't remember about, first induce, then fix the algae.

He said that the BBA algae, the brush type growing on edges of leaves is caused by a lack of CO2 combined with high Ca and high Kh(this sounds just like all of my tanks) His solution was check Kh, use RO to reduce the Kh.

The other type of black algae, that grows like charcoal covering the entire leaves and is not hairy, he says is caused by too much PO4 in comparisson to NO3 and lack of CO2. His solution, stop adding phosphates, improve co2.

His method of injecting max amount of co2 is using the live stock as indicator. By monitoring the tank and increase CO2 injection each hour, until stock starts gasping. Then reduce co2 one step back when they weren't gasping and that's his daily max co2 amount.

His method is only applicable in high light, high co2 tanks so I haven't tried any of it. But here it goes for the sake or knowledge.
 
I have 4 questions for you:
1. How do you measure precisely Co2 concentration? In your Co2 article you mentioned the KH/ph correlation, but how you calculate that?
a) I measure the pH, alkalinity and temperature (sometimes myself, sometimes in the lab), and based on these data I calculate the CO2 concentration using the CO2 calculator on my site.
b) I use a dropchecker to check if I am somewhere near to the calculated numbers.
I don't have a CO2 meter, yet I believe that the calculated data are quite close to the real values in my tank.

2. What about flow? What's your opinion on water flow and how that can affect plants as well as Co2 distribution and stability? What's your recommended water flow compared to tank size?
Flow is quite important in my opinion, as for all the nutrients (incl. CO2) to get into our plants they need to overcome some bariers => boundary layer, cuticle, cell membranes etc. The bigger the boundary layer or the thicker the cuticle, the slower is the diffusion of nutrients into the plant leaves. And flow can substantially reduce the thickness of the boundary layer. So in the tank with a good flow, the nutrient uptake by plants is much faster (more effective) than in tanks with slow or no flow. As to my recommendation, I think that the flow should be as fast as possible, BUT not as fast so that the plants won't be able to keep their leaves in a proper position toward the light source (in other words, plant leaves need to be directed toward the sun, so if the flow is too strong and the leaves are ripped by the current, that's already too much. So higher flow means usually better nutient uptake rates.

3. Always in your Co2 article, you found out that to have stable Co2, we need aeration via surface rippling or other similar way, but what if the surface rippling is to much? Can that cause a disruption of Co2 stability and create a negative effect?
I think that too much surface rippling won't lead to CO2 unstability but rather to lower yet stable CO2 levels. The more rippling, the more degassing will take place. If you add CO2 into your tank, its concentration will constantly increase under normal conditions (why? because the amount we usually add into our tanks is quite big, and the degassing rate is too slow to compensate it). So if you add (say) 4 bubbles per second into 60L tank, the CO2 concentration may rise up to 80 ppm. And the CO2 concentration will keep increasing until you turn the CO2 supply off (and the evening). Then it will began to slowly decrease. In case you add rippling into this equation, the CO2 will degass much faster, but the result won't be fluctuating CO2 levels but rather perfectly stable CO2 levels. The CO2 will degass in a constant rate, so as soon as the CO2 level reaches some equilibrium point (say) 25 ppm, it won't increase any further but rather stays the same for the whole day. All this is clearly visible in my charts. So by rippling you definitely lose some CO2 from water, but in exchange for it you'll gain much stable levels. BTW, if you use wet/dry filter you probably don't need surface rippling as this kind of filter would have probably same effect on the degassing as rippling.

4. Back to BBA, do you think Co2 fluctuations could really contribute to BBA, and maybe flow, degassing and rippling could play a role in that?
I can't imagine such CO2 fluctuations which may play some role in algae infestations. I believe that the CO2 (or pH) fluctuations in our tanks are just natural and are not so dramatic. In nature the CO2 fluctuations during the day are much "worse" (yet it doesn't imply that algae are everywhere). So my personal belief is that plants will be happy with whather CO2 we supply them. Of course, there are some adaptive mechanisms in play in nutrient uptake, but I don't believe that higher or lower (fluctuating) nutrient concentrations may have some really negative impact on plants. T.Barr tries his best to keep perfectly stable CO2 levels, but he doesn't care for keeping perfectly stable levels of other nutrients. Why? The CO2 is also a nutrient. Why should plants need stable CO2 level, but other nutrients may be dosed once a week. When we add KNO3 into the water once a week, then its concentration in water constantly decreases during the week. How is it possible that this fluctuation does not matter to plants? The uptake of all the nutrients is in close relation, so if plants really need stable CO2 levels, then they really need stable supply of other nutrients also! That's the reason I don't believe we really need a stable CO2 levels. We need enough nutrients for our plants to grow well. And I believe that low CO2 levels (10-15 ppm) are enough for our plants to grow very well. So back to BBA (genus Audouinella), I think that most algae need nutrients, light, time and undisturbed environment with reasonable parameters to multiply. In nature BBA is often present in very clear waters with higher flow (they are sometimes used as indicators of clean environment). As they live in quite clean waters (which are usually low in nutrients) I would suppose that may be the reason for them to need higher flow, as with higher flow they get higher supply of nutrients. As I know also, BBA doesn't need strong light to grow (low light is also fine for it). Sometimes we also make a wrong conclusions when speaking of "nutrients". For algae "nutrients" mean not only unorganic but organic as well (together with vitamines and other organic substances). So if you give your algae in your tank all the nutrients needed, and give them enough time to settle down and multiply (without any disturbances like water changes, algae-eaters, plants stealing them light and nutrients etc.), then you will get algae for sure. But if you have enough "disturbing" factors in your tank, the algea may have hard time to take hold and grow well. Some scientists say also that BBA doesn't like too low pH (under 6.5) => it usually live in the range of 6.5 to 8.5. As I know, T.Barr has 5.9 in his main tank, which may contribute to the fact he doesn't have any problems with this kind of algae.
 
I recall reading a good bit of time ago somewhere, possibly 3 years ago, about certain plants having a priority for certain nutrients. This was posted by an aquarist, not a scientist but apparently with long time background in growing aquatic plants for sale, but growing them underwater, not emersed, meaning he couldn't afford to have algae. I can't recall where I read it, I must try to find it but I remember the general idea he explained.
You mean probably the Method of Controlled Imbalances (MCI) by Christian Rubilar.
 
Back
Top