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Nearing the verge of insanity

papa_c

papa_c

Member
Joined
22 Jan 2013
Messages
368
So frustration has now got me to breaking point. No matter what I change I must cannot get the balance of all parameters in my tank to promote strong lush growth.
Tank size 100x50x40cm
Filtration 2x 1000lph – each lightly packed with 1 medium sponge, 1 x course sponge, and a small quantity of siporex 15% of canister volume, 50% of each canister is empty. Intake is at the rear bottom corners, and returns to spray bars at the top back at water level with a rippling effect on the surface. I believe there is good circulation with no dead areas, I can see leaves moving in all areas of the tank. CO2 micro bubbles are pushed from surface to substrate, as do the O2 bubbles released from the plants.
CO2 an insane amount of CO2 is used via 2 inline diffusers, probably 5-6 bps in each, one in each filter return, water is like 7up! 2kg is used per month.
Lighting about 50w of LED. 5cm above the surface.
Substrate in Dennerle micro gravel about 10cm in depth, on top of Tropical Growth. Some bubbles are visible through the glass not sure if this is a good thing though.
Fert dosing, EI based dosed by automated pump, macro mix is 65g kno3, 25g kh2po4, 140g mgso4 in 900ml dosing 100m, on Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday. Micro mix is 15g in 450ml dosing 45ml on Monday and Wednesday. Rest days on Friday and Saturday. Possible over dosing but that should not be a problem.
Maintenance between 50 and 75% water change on a weekly basis, siphoning as much debris from the tank, refilled via HMA filter. Filters are clean after approximately 6 weeks, pipes are cleaned at the same time, diffusers are soaked in bleach solution even 3-4 weeks dependent upon bubble size to maintain micro bubbles.
Timings CO2 on at 1400 off at 2030, lights on at 1630 off at 2300. Everything is automated so there is no differences in days.
Water is very hard, pH drop is no more than 0.6 no matter how much CO2 is pumped, drop checker is yellow 24/7 in all areas of the tank even at the back glass at substrate level.
Fish are 15 cardinal tetras and 6 Oto’s

The best continual growth I had was when the tank was first set up some 10 months ago. No matter what plants I now put in the tank they grow for a short length of time and then melt. Growth is occasionally good but then suffer.
Invitro plants will not grow unless I turn the lighting up, turn down the light and they seem to die quickly beneath the substrate level, turn up the light and I get growth but then suffer with algae outbreaks.
BBA seems to be the main algae issue mainly on hardscape but also on some older growth, I associate BBA with fluctuating CO2 level but can’t understand how this is the case, I also get a small amount of diatoms or BGA but this is not continual and comes and goes.
Plants root in the substrate but growth is leggy, growth is far from lush.


Where am going wrong? The question I have is how to balance light v. CO2 v. Nutrients and get good growth. What is the starting point? From what I can see my variable is the light but very small changes seem to have a drastic effect, reducing seems to affect the low growing plants rapidly, raising does not seems to help. Given my dosing and CO2 quantity I would have thought I can run high light levels, something is not right but cannot work out what it is. Could there be a problem with the substrate set up?
Should I strip the tank down and start again, or is it possible to rescue the situation. Open to any suggestions.
 
thanks P, the LEDS are fully dimmable, i have three home made strips so could remove one of them and reduce the others. If i drop the lights by 50% then the tank will be quiet dark, happy to give it a try, but when i have had it this low, A. reineckii mini simply vanished...they were invitro plantlets which i have always struggled with on low light.....any other suggestions? should i remove all old growth that has signs of BBA and cleans the tank? fish can be move elsewhere if needed
 
papa_cee said:
thanks P, the LEDS are fully dimmable, i have three home made strips so could remove one of them and reduce the others. If i drop the lights by 50% then the tank will be quiet dark, happy to give it a try, but when i have had it this low, A. reineckii mini simply vanished...they were invitro plantlets which i have always struggled with on low light.....any other suggestions? should i remove all old growth that has signs of BBA and cleans the tank? fish can be move elsewhere if needed
Click to expand...

Are all your problems with invitro plants? I've had a similar experience... If I submerse them straight away, they die in a couple of weeks. I've had to grow them emersed for a few weeks before flooding, then they seem to do alright.
 
Friend Papa_cee...
Just wait a bit i´ll answer you with a very long explanation and then you´ll do as you pleased.

Best Regards,
 
There´s nothing wrong with the plants but only with your tanks. Open another thread Julian or search here by "Ammania Bonsai MELT" or "Utricularia MELT" and you´ll find very interesting debates on this matter.
HUg
 
OMG! Interesting questions.. :) I'm totaly at the opposite of your given circomstances in my setup and can't say i have those problems.
All invotro plants i did put in there melted away to some extend, but kinda all that survived a bit i got to recover nicely. Even those which melted away for more than 90% i managed to get back.

If you got such a strong flow so that what ever bubbles, is pushed towards the substrate, you might have a bit to much there. Sounds like a river you can raft on and have a lot of fun too.

Can you also elaborate on what kind of LED strips you are using? I have a tank half your size and using a DIY 41 watt led strip setup. I started out with 3 x 7 watt strips 600 lum each, what is OK for anubias. ferns and such etc. But i wanted ( also have) some others more light demanding and extended it with 2 more strips 10 watt 1000 lumen each. And i see still could use some more. But it's more than enough for the moderate light demanding plants i have right now.

My highest point from substrate to LED is 34 cm. Up the slobe i'm at 25 cm from substrate to LED.

So i wonder what your specs are.. 50 watts above your size? What LEDs are you using, high power? Or SMD?

It's hard to write down i understand and for someone else to imagine the whole picture with just a story without seeing the real deal. So i realy can't say if that's the issue. But as far as i can judge from your story.. My best guess would be try to reduce the flow to moderate and up the light, maybe some more strips with better specs.

I also had some algae problems in my setup and yes if the plant has enough green, cut all away that is infected. As long as there are some leaves left to catch light, also cut them away at the first sign of new growth. I know it doesn't look nice, but that is just temporary..
 
Last edited:
All, thanks for you responses! Keep them coming, I'll post a couple of before and after pictures, and a video of the flow a bit later, it sounds dramatic but it definitely is a raging rapid!

@Paolo, thanks for the links and feel free to write a long answer, for sure I will digest it...
 
Papa_cee

You remind me till a few months ago.. struggling and struggling and struggling.. and for what you have writen I can see that you were drinking to much of the (DES)information on this forum and others.

The problem with the foruns is that they do not have accurate updates and do not remove information that we consider as correct yesterday and today are wrong. The information remains over the years and people get fed of it.

Look something.. do you really find normal so many (thousands) people having spo much issues with their tanks?

So what i´m going to write is just my experience and experience only. You´ll do afterwords has you intend to.

Concerning your tank:

FILTRATION:

You have it more than enough. As for flow it is quite obvious you´re wasting time and energie. You don´t need to see plants dancing in the tank but only shaking a little bit. If they shake just a bit than you know water is passing through them get it? No need for such amounts of flow.

You only have to make shure your INFLOW(s) lily Pipes or tubes are really close to bottom (really close to it) of the substrate so that the water circulates down there as it makes suction. Not as so many you see that have the tubes or the Lilys at the middle of the tank.

As for assembling the filters I would do this:

[URL='http://i59.tinypic.com/21c8caf.jpg%5b/IMG']http://i59.tinypic.com/21c8caf.jpg[/IMG[/URL]]

CO2:

CO2 turned on 24/7.

In mother nature do you turn off CO2? Is always present no matter if it´s day or night. And for those who say plants release CO2 by night and warn about overgas livestock and other arguments just forget it.. is such a minor amount that you can´t even measure it. Forget that argument. These are arguments you´ve read over and over.. miths.

You can stabilise for good your CO2 and all other parameters of the water living it on 24/7. So for now you´ll need to stabiliset it in a fixed value.

You can do as I did. 60% or 70% Water Change. Buy a “CAL AQUA” Drop Checker reagent calibrated in 30PPM and fill de drop.

Then start CO2. Leave it as it is now and don´t open or reduce the CO2 valve. Just leave it that way.

By tommorrow (supposing you do the WC by night) check the DC. You should find it light green cause CO2 is now being acumulating even considering what is needed for consumption byt he plants.

If Co2 still remains more blue or dark green in the DC increase just a little bit opening the valve and chek a couple of hours before or next day. Repeat till you find it light green.

BY the time you find light green you have it. The reagent inside of it doesn´t lie as any test does

It means that plants consume what they need during photoperiod and you have it stable in good values all the time. No Co2 flutuation at all.

If you find it yellow anytime just do reverse and decrease till you get it.

Regard also that plants do consume CO2 along their living (day and night) and not only when lights are on. When lights are on they consume more cause or energie of course delivered from lights. Also.. it is claimed that flutuations of CO2 and Ph are the cause of most algae isn´t that so? You can read in every post you find about CO2 issue in this forum also ;)

So i shuting off and on according to lights? Does this make any sense?

More even as time goes by you´ll find that you wont´need to have the DC in light green but in a darker green and plants do fine cause the CO2 is always present so the demand of themselves started to be minor in time. It´s just like they (the plants) dont have to worry of eating as much as they can in that photoperiod time.

This method of turning on the CO2 as the lights turn on also or some couple of hours before is a method taken by thousands but concerning only consumption of CO2. That is the major concern.

Why everybody adopt this method? Is there any scientific purpose or explanation that this is the right thing to do?

Other thing you mentioned.. another indicious of your readings in this forum.. Usuallly people state in their minds to get a goal of one unit down on the PH assuming that will do a 30 PPM amount of co2 in accordance to those tables and other events. This sudden need and brute force hading CO2 in a minor time alters all tank water parameters in a suden time also. Do you believe this won´t have a great negative impact?

And then again by the end of the day when you shut it down you´ll be altering again all parameters.

By having CO2 in a 24/7 you don´t have to worry about achieving that. Is always there. Your tank parametters are always the same. And not only the CO2 but also PH+KH+GH etc.. cause you don’t mess around with the CO2.

This is called a stabilised ecosistem.

By having a stabilized sistem plants and fishes adapt and live in those conditions and aren´t adapting twice a day, 730 times a year to changes in the list of probalities.

Cause for achieving good dissolution of CO2 you´ll need the best hardware you can purchase and here my friend don’t spare money. DOaqua or ADA Difusor. Don´t doubt of that.

Having bubbles all over the tank is a mistake. More waste than other thing else. Buy a ADA diffuser and you´ll see it leaving pretty less bubbles nad more “dust” of CO2 as the Twinstar does. And of course having this kind of high class dissolution you´ll spare more CO2 even than you do now by having those huge amounts of Co2 seeing bubbles everywhere..3

For your tank I bet with you that a 2 kg fire extinguisher remains for almost 3 months having 2 bubbles per second. Here in Portugal I fill the fire extinguisher with 6.5€

Other concern but that is just a thought of mine: I think the "Estimative Index Sistem" is not a good companion of all this.. cause that ideia of putting all salts in the tank no matter in what values doesn´t bring algae is not quite true. Cause i have it stabilized till I did fertilization by ADA method or Tropica and nothing occurs till I start doing "Ei"..so take your conclusions.

Once again we use “Ei” for save money but that doesn´t give you any guaranties of success

Estimative index is a flop has for my concern. I also believe that meny of all my tnak problems were due to the Ei no matter people claim Ei doens´t bring problems.

It is not the opinion I also collect from scientific teachers, cientists investigators, biology professors and investigators and many other people I get in touch with as we have here in Portugal doing their jobs in our Oceanarium where Amano create his “Forests Underwater”.

You should use a Tropica Sistem fertilization or ADA system. They know what they did and are in this market for quite a while for not making mistakes. By one of these brands and following their receipt you ensure that your plants have all they need in the right dosage without wasting.

I end this referring that you should take a good look to your substrate, cause I don´t know for how long you used it. Plants are “radicular” roots. They fed by the roots so a vey good fertil substrate is always needed to complement the ferts in the water column.

Very good cleaning of the substrate for not increase detritus or organic waste (food or plants remainings) and a very good Cleanup Crew of Croistal Reds, Red Cherrys and Amano Shrimp.

Best regards hope to be usefull
 
Paulo Soares said:
By having CO2 in a 24/7 you don´t have to worry about achieving that. Is always there. Your tank parametters are always the same. And not only the CO2 but also PH+KH+GH etc.. cause you don’t mess around with the CO2.

This is called a stabilised ecosistem.

By having a stabilized sistem plants and fishes adapt and live in those conditions and aren´t adapting twice a day, 730 times a year to changes in the list of probalities.
Click to expand...

Hi Paulo,

I think you have made some very valid points here, particularly about the CO2. I have got 2 x 3kg CO2 bottles on my tank. One feeds a glass in tank diffuser 24/7 which keeps things stabilised, the other comes on during the day on a timer and feeds a UP Aqua Inline Diffuser. Each one is set at 2 bubbles per second.

Regarding the Estimative Index (EI), I have had mixed results using this method. I have had some absolutely stunning results using it but occaisionally when I have mis-calculated the mixture I have had disastrous results, which was a fault of mine and not necessarily just the EI, but this mis-calculation was made worse when I have had my lights on too long.

I also agree about the flow rate around the tank, as long as there is some movement around the plants there is no need to create a torrential flow.

Cheers,

Steve.
 
I bought the ADA Pollen Glass Beetle of 40 mm. Even if in the future if i intend to buy a larger tank i´m prepared for any need.
With this 40 mm you get a all time diffuser. No need for a 50 mm at all.
In aquasabi costs 129€. I really think it deserve any "peny"! No doubts of that.

Along the years i strugle with the CO2 and waste lots and lots of money buying other brands of diffusers (5 in total) trying to solve a CO2 issue (dissolution).. if i have had bought this in first place i would have saved money and prettty good hair i loose with tanks.. ;)

There´s no use running away or trying to surround.. in this hobby or you buy good stuff or you have issues.

As concerning the "Ei" is just like you hint... to many variables to deal with.. is it worth it? And the headache to ajust it to the tank at all time as you have to much or to less vegetable mass.. and the headache if something fail.. at the minimal failure in any other parameter there goes the tank to the nettles. I have enough. Enough is enough. And if we do really good "maths" we don´t save money with the Ei.

Best regards
 
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