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Is this hobby losing the plot?

I think the problems mentioned here have a lot to do with marketing by aquatics companies themselves. Any product will claim improvements over previous/alternative products, ease of use, and effective results. It can't be true for all of them. Most hobbyists with some experience learn to be sceptical of these claims and go to other hobbyists on forums for advice. There we find loads of contradictory ideas and dogmas.

I wish the aquatics companies would be more open and not leave it only to hobbyists to do research. Hobbyists typically just don't have the resources to do scientifically-valid experiments. Surely, if ADA, Eheim, Tropica to name just three, pooled a little money into joint long-term research projects, they could conduct tests to get some definitive data on the problems hobbyists struggle with. They would benefit from truly more effective products based on this research and happier, more successful hobbyists.

P
 
Jose said:
But my point is that if you learn to enjoy the ride instead of getting focussed on the results then it suddenly becomes more enjoyable
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Excellence in such a complex thing like a planted tank is difficult to reach, and this should be the first thing to be assumed. However, once it is understood it can be a good motivation for progressing and "enjoying the ride".

And please don't necessarily read "Excellence" as "whatever trendy aquascaper layout". BigTom's tanks (for example) are a good example of layouts that will never win a fashion contest but that are also an example of "Excellence" and that entail lots of learning even if they may look simple.

Jordi
 
pepedopolous said:
I wish the aquatics companies would be more open and not leave it only to hobbyists to do research
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If only food companies(for humans) would tell the truth on their packaging..................
 
parotet said:
will never win a fashion contest
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but are tanks i would love to own. That is why i enjoy biotope aquaria far more then artificial landscapes and forests, floating islands etc etc
 
In stead of learning to drive in a small car they wanted to step in a formula3 car and drive away immediately. No learning, it just needs to be perfect, and quick please.........[/QUOTE]

That's me... I'm embarrassed to say, I feel like I'm skidding around the corner in my Formula3 narrowly missing a tree and occationally clipping the curb!

All the gear and no idea, but willing to learn and actually not looking for instant results, just unsure how to go from 0-60 without killing everything.

I am injecting co2 from a fire extingisher via an atomiser into the outlet of my eheim pro3. I have set the whole tank up like a whirlpool with the help of a power head and I'm EI dosing. To be honest, the tank looked better before I added all this poxy stuff! I have 3 TMC Ultima Colourplus tiles running off a control unit, which combined cost me over £600 in the sales! But I guess there's no harm in that, as they're controllable and should last a long time...!

However I have suffered from all kinds of problems and I'm not at all happy with the way the tank looks.

On the plus side, my wife (says she) thinks it looks great, the fish all seem happy, healthy and continue to spawn and best of all I'm still enjoying myself. I have lots to learn and time to wait, but I am enjoying the journey in spite of the fact that I look at the tank and only see the flaws. like somebody on here said, if I can go home after a long day at work and worry about a fish tank, I'm not living the most stressful life...

I must remember that this is a hobby for the pleasure, not just the result and that it's not going to look like the pros and you clever guys have achieved with years of experience. I'm 3 or 4 months in and I've learned SO much. As far am I'm concerned, if the fish are happy and I'm having fun, to hell with it. It's impossible for me to bored. I am constantly distracted by this and I like that.

Thanks for making me feel like I'm not the only idiot out there...!
 
Manufacturers have to sell product to survive and prosper, shops have to do the same. The ideal customer will adopt their system and purchase their fertilisers, substrates and maybe plants as well which are clearly high margin products. So selling someone a complete high end set up with CO2 and potent lighting etc, is very attractive. Then further selling them, skimmers, alternative CO2 diffusers /atomisers and reactors test kits etc. to help them with their new found problems is also lucrative, in the short term at least.

There's little short term incentive to say well actually you're best starting with a simpler and cheaper lower light "mid-tech" setup until you've become familiar with maintenance demands and balancing the tank. Oh and buy the way you can save yourself a bunch by mixing your own fertilisers...

Maybe an ADA retailer wouldn't actually sell a newbie a 60P with an Aquasky 602 but anyone can order that or similar online and face the consequences...

Maybe there should be an introductory article on the home page of this forum for beginners explaining some of this before they go shopping...
 
Chris Jackson said:
Maybe there should be an introductory article on the home page of this forum for beginners explaining some of this before they go shopping...
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Yeap this is what I dont understand. It doesnt take so much to do a nice detailed small booklet as an intro for beginners. They can even sell it.
 
Alexander Belchenko said:
Amano is my friend, but he did it wrong way
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Just like when you look at the Lisboa tank, it looks good but it feels off to me. And the followers have gone to the extremes. While Amano wants to recreate the atmosphere of nature, the folowers recreate trees.
 
Edvet said:
Just like when you look at the Lisboa tank, it looks good but it feels off to me. And the followers have gone to the extremes. While Amano wants to recreate the atmosphere of nature, the folowers recreate trees.
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I like the pictures of Lisboa tank. I think it has great education intent. But on the other hand I understand how big a maintenance efforts there, just to keep it beautiful.
This is extreme I talked about earlier. Many of people (me including) do like such nice and colorful pictures of the tank, and even enjoy them in real life, but in reality it's hard, and I do understand that true biotopes is better but not always as attractive as such Hi-Fi tanks. Dilema!
 
Alexander Belchenko said:
I like the pictures of Lisboa tank. I think it has great education intent. But on the other hand I understand how big a maintenance efforts there, just to keep it beautiful.
This is extreme I talked about earlier. Many of people (me including) do like such nice and colorful pictures of the tank, and even enjoy them in real life, but in reality it's hard, and I do understand that true biotopes is better but not always as attractive as such Hi-Fi tanks. Dilema!
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Yeap its like comparing POP to Classical music.
 
Alexander Belchenko said:
true biotopes is better but not always as attractive
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Not as much better, depends on what you aim for, but in my mind always better for the fish, and thus more atractive.
I look on the internet weekly , almost daily, to find data about natural environments i could use to make a copy of a slice of nature to give fish the most natural and nice looking tank i can make.
 
I believe a member on another forum said it best.
"Everybody want's to turn everything up to eleven" .
 
No manufacturer will release all its info to the hobbyists. Most of them have good intent and do help out hobbyists, but they can't reveal their company secrets to the world. No commercial company survives on good will and good faith. Someone in Asia will clone it and that will affect their bottom lines.

I think the hobby is still in plot. It's just become a bit more complex these days with the advent of technology and products. There's never a one solution fits all, unless you go with a vertically integrated solution like ADA. Back then you rode a horse. Now you drive cars. In the future cars will drive you. But getting from A to B has not lost the plot. Its whether you wanna ride, drive yourself or be driven :)
 
flygja said:
No manufacturer will release all its info to the hobbyists
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With the freshwater hobby, I don't think that the companies really have any secrets to give away. Their 'research' is not much better than hobbyist amateur efforts. That's why I would like to see a pool of money from various companies aimed at specific planted aquarium research.

Take the case of Tropica. I think they must have plenty of company secrets when it comes to successfully cultivating plants for sale and which plants are suitable for the market. They can keep that. However, the advice they give to hobbyists regarding CO2 and light seems either outdated or contradicting the EI dogma. This is where we need more research.

An example: Tropica say that Staurogyne repens is a 'medium' difficulty plant and therefore needs '6-14 mg/l' of CO2. Really? In that case I ought to turn down my CO2 right now and save on gas! I wouldn't dare, my Staurogyne is struggling at the moment with low light and (measured with my amateurish hobbyist means), 30+ mg/l CO2.

P
 
flygja said:
No manufacturer will release all its info to the hobbyists. Most of them have good intent and do help out hobbyists, but they can't reveal their company secrets to the world.
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I'm not sure about this... take for example the ADA fert line. It is fairly easy to find in the internet what's the content of this cool bottles. Does it mean that people will not buy them anymore? I may be wrong but my guess is that ADA is selling more and more fertilizers. I think there are two reasons for this: on the one hand, some people are not really interested in making their DIY version. And on the other hand, ADA (as it happens with BMW, Mercedes or other luxury car brands) is selling not only products, but a "way of life", a status. ADA SuperJet filters are extremely expensive for the flow delivered. Does it matter? Not at all, tthey look gorgeous under transparent cabinets or cabinets without doors...

Think about it, more brands are following this path (i.e Elos, Aquavas). IMO there are few secrets in the hobby. The day after a new product is released I'm sure it is analyzed in detail by the other companies or hobbyists, and in most cases there is no need to do so... a new stainless 300 lph filter for 1,000€? a new co2 cristal bell diffuser for 400€? a new light that grows better plans? Come on guys, this is smoke and nothing more. But the classic brands (Sera, JBL, Eheim, etc.) are not that cool.

flygja said:
No commercial company survives on good will and good faith. Someone in Asia will clone it and that will affect their bottom lines.
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That's different, being the first is important. ADA has sold millions of AquaSoil bags and thousands of AquaSky units before the EU and knock off Chinese versions came to the market. I'm sure Twinstar is earning a lot of money right now, at least until cheap version will be manufactured. I'm pretty sure companies know this and are focused on new (but not necessarily useful) gadgets.

Jordi
 
I agree totally with Pepedopolous. It wont make them no harm to put out some info on how to grow plants, I can only see it benefiting them as the hobby becomes more popular.

pepedopolous said:
An example: Tropica say that Staurogyne repens is a 'medium' difficulty plant and therefore needs '6-14 mg/l' of CO2. Really? In that case I ought to turn down my CO2 right now and save on gas! I wouldn't dare, my Staurogyne is struggling at the moment with low light and (measured with my amateurish hobbyist means), 30+ mg/l CO2.
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I think there is a lot to be said about co2 and tropica. I honestly think there is a difference between how co2 is injected (dissolved vs bubbles). How can Amano grow perfect HC/or any other carpet plant with bad diffusers and some bubbles in the tank yet others struggle with 30 ppm CO2? Have you guys seen Viktor Lantos's tanks? I think the answer is in the bubbles. I think here lies the main crossroads for the different methods and why people keep coming up in forums saying they have good co2 with almost gassed fish but are still getting melting and algae. Well its not the only reason because there are also people using diffusers and having problems but I think its the main one.
 
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pepedopolous said:
However, the advice they give to hobbyists regarding CO2 and light seems either outdated or contradicting the EI dogma.
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IMO Tropica website includes one of the most consistent information on the internet. Honestly I think these guys know very well their job...

pepedopolous said:
An example: Tropica say that Staurogyne repens is a 'medium' difficulty plant and therefore needs '6-14 mg/l' of CO2. Really? In that case I ought to turn down my CO2 right now and save on gas! I wouldn't dare, my Staurogyne is struggling at the moment with low light and (measured with my amateurish hobbyist means), 30+ mg/l CO2.
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Remember that what is happening in your tank may be affected by dozens of parameters you are not taking into account, and this does not make advice from others wrong

Jordi
 
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