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What exactly causes BBA? Part 2 - Bacterial imbalance

fablau said:
I assume that if a "lack of traces" is contributing to BBA, that means that they are well below toxic levels. Otherwise they are overruled.
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We cannot monitor all the trace elements using tests, so even if Copper and Iron are OK, it might be possible other trace elements in deficiency. But this is also interesting: Copper, in fact, is an inhibitor of algae growth. In most of swimming pools some amounts of CuS04 are provided to avoid the appearance of algae. It might be possible that Guest, by having high levels of Cu, impacted in this point.

This link is explicitly devoted for this type of treatment and it is a brilliant reading for algae fighting techniques:

https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/48968/ISWSMP-111.pdf?sequence=2

And this link, for example, explains the impact of Copper in algae evolution in freshwater reservoirs:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01866913

However, there are reason for not to use Copper sulphate but Copper chelates instead:

http://www.aquaticbiologists.com/aquatic-chemicals/herbicides/copper-sulfate

So some careful thinking should be carried out about this.

I knew about that, but long time forgotten, so just when Guest mentioned it, the idea came back to my mind. So probably, behind the extra addition of micronutrients comes this side effect of adding Cu, which makes the life of algae more difficult.
 
Ummmm..............
Algae are Diverse
Algae will do whatever it takes to survive. Maybe that is why they are one of the oldest forms of life on earth. Autotrophic species are photosynthetic like plants. Heterotrophic species get their energy from organic carbon compounds in much the same way as yeast, bacteria and animals. Mixotrophic species can use sunlight or organic carbon, whatever they can get.

Heterotrophic and Autotrophic Algae
Alltech Algae, our new plant in Winchester, Kentucky, is designed to produce heterotrophic algae. These algae are grown in large stainless steel tanks in a mixture of water, sugar and other nutrients. But, we are also growing autotrophic algae in clear plastic water-filled tubes as part of a pilot project with East Kentucky Power Cooperative. These algae live on sunlight, nutrients and CO2 that is produced by the co-ops coal-fired power plant. Exhaust from the plant is bubbled through the tubes and the algae consume some of the CO2 and NOx in the process.

One Algae's Waste is Another Algae's Food
It is pretty remarkable that algae are so diverse. This offers an opportunity to create a cyclical system in which waste from one process is used as a resource in the next process. Autotrophic algae could be grown on sunlight and CO2. If they were harvested for oil then the remaining biomass (carbohydrates and proteins) could be used to feed a batch of heterotrophic algae, who would return the favor by producing CO2 for the autotrophic algae.
http://www.alltech.com/blog/posts/algae-autotrophic-heterotrophic-mixotrophic-whatever-it-takes
 
for instance..............
Abstract
This study sought to investigate the growth rate and organic carbon and nutrient removal efficiency of Chlorella sorokiniana under autotrophic, heterotrophic and mixotrophic conditions. Growth rates of the microalgae were 0.24 d(-1), 0.53 d(-1) and 0.44 d(-1) in autotrophic, heterotrophic and mixotrophic conditions, respectively. The growth rate of C. sorokiniana was significantly higher for that grown under heterotrophic conditions. The nitrogen removal rates were 13.1 mg-N/L/day, 23.9 mg-N/L/day and 19.4 mg-N/L/day, respectively. The phosphorus removal rates reached to 3.4 mg-P/L/day, 5.6 mg-P/L/day and 5.1 mg-P/L/day, respectively. Heterotrophic conditions were superior in terms of the microalgae growth and removal of nitrogen and phosphorus compared to autotrophic and mixotrophic conditions, suggesting that microalgae cultured under this condition would be most useful for application in wastewater treatment systems.

Copyright © 2013 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23850820
 
BruceF said:
Autotrophic species are photosynthetic like plants. ]
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Sorry, but I think this is referring to Photoautotrophic bacteria.

Nitrifying (autotrophic) bacteria wouldn't last long in the pitch black of a canister filter if they produced energy through photosynthesis.


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Bruce, I think this is really interesting as it suggests algae prefer ammonium (heterotrophic bacteria dominant) rather than nitrate (autotrophic bacteria dominant) as their nitrogen source, which is key for their production of protein (higher C/N ratio than plants as consist of a higher proportion of protein)


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Most of this is way over my head Andy. I am simply trying to pull out some information that might be useful.
But yeah..........
 
fablau said:
What did you do then?
I assume that if a "lack of traces" is contributing to BBA, that means that they are well below toxic levels. Otherwise they are overruled.
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I've stopped dosing traces until it gets down to acceptable levels. Certain plants are much more tolerant of high micronutrients, such as ferns and Anubias. Others, such as Rotalas, are not. However, even though ferns and Anubias are more tolerant, fish and shrimp are not and have died or appear to have developed chronic health issues. I only mention this so that you don't overdose and harm your plants and animals, which seems really easy to do at EI levels. Rates of Fe uptake are far lower than the suggested amounts, almost none, which indicates that it really isn't necessary to dose much for plants to get all they need.
 
Guest said:
I've stopped dosing traces until it gets down to acceptable levels. Certain plants are much more tolerant of high micronutrients, such as ferns and Anubias. Others, such as Rotalas, are not. However, even though ferns and Anubias are more tolerant, fish and shrimp are not and have died or appear to have developed chronic health issues. I only mention this so that you don't overdose and harm your plants and animals, which seems really easy to do at EI levels. Rates of Fe uptake are far lower than the suggested amounts, almost none, which indicates that it really isn't necessary to dose much for plants to get all they need.
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Ok, thanks for clarifying. So, why do you think increasing traces can benefit Anubias, for example, in combating BBA?
 
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I don't think that.
fablau said:
Ok, thanks for clarifying. So, why do you think increasing traces can benefit Anubias, for example, in combating BBA?
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If they are deficient in micros, then that affects growth. If they aren't deficient, then it's not an issue. I was only referring to plants that are deficient. So if you've been dosing traces, then it's not likely necessary to increase dosing.
 
Hi everyone,

Interesting read and thought-provoking.

Here are my thoughts:
  • The study of symbiosis between algae and bacteria is still evolving.
  • There are about 200 different species of freshwater algae in the division Rhodophyta
  • There may be many species of Black Beard or Brush Algae (BBA) that are commonly found in freshwater aquariums
  • BBA is typically introduced invasively through acquired plants or even the guts of fish.
  • Studies have found that some algae require exogenous vitamin B12 for growth. Others, don't. For example, one study found that out of 326 algal species surveyed, 171 species required exogenous vitamin B12.
  • Heterotrophic bacteria use dissolved organics to grow and can reproduce much faster than the nitrifying bacteria we are used to.
  • Without massive testing, you don't know whether the species of BBA you have in your aquarium is one of the ones that require B12.
  • CO2 fluctuations or deficiency is not THE cause of BBA. It may be a reason for BBA (and any other algae) to grow if present in the aquarium.
  • I doubt we will find a single reason why BBA outbreaks happen. And, that's OK.
Do's and One Don't
  • Do follow the golden equilibrium of Light-CO2-Fertilizer for your particular setup
  • Do be consistent
  • Do large water changes weekly
  • Do vacuum the substrate
  • Do clean your canister filter (often)
  • Do keep maintenance crew that may include SAEs
  • Do test your water for GH and KH and keep them steady
  • Do give your new plants a sterilizing bath or quarantine unless they are tissue cultured
  • Do quarantine fish
  • Don't acquire plants from unknown sources or big box stores
 
Allow me some humour here, Scapefu, but I am feeling just exhausted after reading the list of "Do´s". Even doing that, you can get algae for multitude of other reasons:

Scapefu said:
Do follow the golden equilibrium of Light-CO2-Fertilizer for your particular setup
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This can be quite tricky. Of course, it is the goal of any planted aquarium, but it takes time and not always easy to get, as it depends of a big amount of factors: Density and type of plants, type of soils, size of the filter, flow in the tank, exchange of gases between atmosphere and water, temperature of the room, intensity of your light, distance from light to substrate level, amount of fishes, kind of food of the fishes, brand of fertilizers you use, your tap water quality and composition... and those are just a few of the factors.

Scapefu said:
Do large water changes weekly
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It depends. In a well balanced aquarium, you do not need this. It is recommended, but not the reason to have algae, if you for instance replace the evaporation with RO water. I change water all the weeks, but not a large amount. I try to balance my nutrients in the water, so I test to check the amounts of fertilizers I have to add. And as always: Observing the plants and learning how they behave under what conditions.If you are an EI guy, then water change is mandatory, but that is one of the reasons I do not like EI system.

Scapefu said:
  • Do give your new plants a sterilizing bath or quarantine unless they are tissue cultured
  • Do quarantine fish
  • Don't acquire plants from unknown sources or big box stores
Click to expand...

The assumption than algae problem can be introduced by "foreign patogens" coming with your plants/fishes is wrong. It is totally impossible to avoid algae "seeds" entering in your tank. Especially if afterwards you use tap water to fill the tank up. If you think that water treatment can kill algae, just take some water from your tap, put in a closed flask at the sun, and see what happens within the time...

For the rest of items, well, the usual stuff when mantaining a tank.

Lack of maintenance is an adjuvant factor of algae problem, but usually, they appear for a combination of factors, many of them not easy to control, and the only way to go is correct the problem when happens. Even expert people running tanks for many years have suffered sudden problems with algae with no apparent reason.

There is no magic solution/technique for this problem, I am afraid.
 
Scapefu said:
  • Do give your new plants a sterilizing bath or quarantine unless they are tissue cultured
  • Do quarantine fish
  • Don't acquire plants from unknown sources or big box stores
Click to expand...

I have some doubts on these to "prevent" BBA or any other type of algae. Algae spores are going to be in your tank anyway. We all know about people putting plants "covered" of BBA into their tanks, and after a few days or weeks getting clean, just because the environment wasn't right for BBA.

In other words, we all know that despite the above are "good general rules", they are not "key" to prevent any algal outbreak.

I don't think the above rules should be weighted at the same level of other clearly possible causes contributing to BBA infestations such as: not right supplied Co2, high organics, etc. and then water changes, keep consistent Co2, etc. Those are key to prevent BBA. Not quarantine fish or plants.

What I mean, is that I think we should focus here on what really matters to prevent and combat BBA in the aquarium.
 
Scapefu said:
CO2 fluctuations or deficiency is not THE cause of BBA. It may be a reason for BBA (and any other algae) to grow if present in the aquarium.
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This statement also is deceiving... as I said earlier, algal spores are going to be in your tank anyway, no matter if you quarantine or not fish, plants, rocks, whatever. Is like if you think to avoid introducing bacteria in your tank: you are going to have them anyway! You say then: Co2 is not THE cause of BBA? May be the reason for BBA to grow? I'd say: may be "one" of the reasons. That's why we are discussing here other possible causes such as vitamin B12, ammonia, etc. All this may be confusing otherwise.
 
To be honest, it os going to be rather difficult to indetify the "cause". However, we potentially can identify a treatment or mitigation to the problem by experience. My main hopes here are really to find how to fight them once they appear...because it is quite probably that we will never really learn why the start to grow...or maybe yes, but I doubt that topic can be really covered in this forum. ;)
 
Guys, while I appreciate your remarks, I'm scratching my head because it seems to me you have taken my comments out of context in your replies.

In fact, I think we are saying the same thing, right? Maintaining good water/fertilizer/light/CO2 parameters is key. My simple point is that inconsistent CO2 is not THE reason for BBA. Unfortunately, there are many people that say that this is THE cause of BBA.

Are you saying that available B12 in the aquarium with ammonium leads specifically to BBA? Alternatively, minimizing B12 in your aquarium would result in BBA being eliminated? I don't think this will prove correct. I believe there is not a single culprit that leads to BBA.

A recent study found that caffeine caused a significant growth in an algae species. Are we going to test for caffeine as the culprit for BBA? When do we stop going after every possible root cause for algae growth?

Also, while we do have algae spores in our aquariums, we don't all have BBA spores in our aquariums or in our air. Otherwise, we would have every species of algae known to man growing in our tanks.

Why would you not take steps to prevent BBA from getting into your aquarium by cleaning plants of it or purchasing from a place that you know doesn't have BBA?
 
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