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Open Book

So I made a couple of changes during my weekly 50% water change today. I removed the aesthetically pleasing acrylic spray bars and put my black JBL ones back in. This appears to improve flow as the plants are moving more. It also allows me to put them higher up so I get more surface agitation. I also got my replacement UP inline atomiser from CO2art so I have added this onto the filter outlet so I can see the bubbles and flow. I'll give this a few days to see what happens!

The lights are on 7% for six hours a day. I can't help but feel I am doing something fundamentally wrong. I look at some Journals with in tank diffusers running 2bps, less turnover and lights much brighter than what I run mine at and they are amazing! I don't know how people do it. I've never had luscious looking plants. I can't count the bubbles in my bubble counter as they are so quick it looks like a constant stream. I find that each week I have to refill my bubble counter due to the water being pushed up the tube by the number of bubbles I have running.


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So below are photos of the JBL spray bar fitted and the melt. I have fitted the spray bar about an Inch under the water surface with the holes pointing level towards the front of the tank as per some of Ceg's threads.

Todays Info is:

PH at CO2 on: 7.45
PH at Lights on: 6.5
PH at CO2 off: 6.31
PH at lights off: <I will add this at 21:00>

Both channels on the TMC1500 are at 7%.

Spray Bar_16.jpg


melt_16.jpg


I have added a couple of videos to YouTube so you can see the surface agitation i have as well as the flow. Excuse the video quality, its a new camera and i didn't know how to work it!!!

Surface Movement


Flow and Melting


Any other ideas or advice would be great!
 
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Your problem is the light. I had the same exact problem because of too little light.

A 40cm from the substrate, I had the TMC 1500 at 50% for 8 hours.

Now for a bigger tank, similar to yours, the TMC 1500 is at 50cm from substrate, 7 hours and 65%.

You have too little light! At 7% it should be dark!

1. Circulation is more than enough, a bit too much I might say. Cut it back a little so that plants will not have any mechanical damage.
2. I wouldn't imagine you having a nutrient deficiency with that substrate and even if you did it would have shown differently.
3. Ph drop is good. You have plenty of CO2 there.
4. Light! Light! Light! is the only one thing left.

I had the same problem. Up the lights my friend...you will not hear this very often in this forum but up the lights! Look at what happened to me:

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/natural-aquarium-attempt-16-06-2015-pics.33795/
 
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Hi Jaap,

The lighting has always been in the back of my mind as i don't suffer any algae issues at all...i haven't seen any in that tank. I'll put it up to 30% over a few days. I have got plenty of CO2 in there, It sounds like a fizzy drink!

I'll also turn the flow down a bit!

Thanks for your input!

Kind Regards

Ross
 
Just set it to 30% and then go up 1% each day until you reach 45%-50%. That should be sufficient for good healthy plants. However, you should increase the light immediately as the plants don't photosynthesize at the moment. Also ensure that there is no ambient light in the room before or after lights are on.

Keep us posted. Set the lights 30% today and see what happens over the next couple of days.
 
Hi Jaap,

There is no ambient light so i have put them to 30% and will increase as you say.

I'll update this Journal.

Many thanks again

Ross
 
Hi,

Out of interest, what pH probe are you using?

I wrote some controller software for my raspberrypi earlier this year. At the moment it controls the LED lights and dosing pumps and monitors various temperatures - but I'd like to add support for other sensors as well.

Thanks and regards,
Mark

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I agree with Jaap on this one.
30% is a good starting point. I'm running the exact same light on a Fluval Edge. Started of at 30%-ish and now running 55% (3 cm from water surface, about 40 cm from substrate).
The Growth has been crazy with that setting and sufficient CO2.

Only concern is the Anubias being too high up and exposed, but if you let the Palustris shade it should be ok.

I really like the layout of your roots, and it will look really Nice when it grows in :)
 
Hi Mark,

I use the Atlas Scientific probe and circuit. Really easy to setup. It records a reading into the MySQL database every five minutes using a Python script run by a cron job. The webpage runs a php script every two seconds. I found that if I ran the script every second I would get weird readings as it was when the sensor buffer was clear due to a new reading being taken. By making it every two second the buffer always has something in it.

I plan on getting their conductivity kit so I can monitor TDS. The issue here is that the PH and Conductivity sensors can't work together.....I forget why. I need to email Atlas Scientific to see how they would get them both working. I imagine I will need to look at an Arduino board to make it work.

If you get the Atlas Scientific PH probe, make sure you get the electrical isolation circuit too otherwise you will always have a PH of 10.0 due to interference from the other electrical kit in the tank!

Any questions please just ask!

Thanks

Ross


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Hi Mark,

I use the Atlas Scientific probe and circuit. Really easy to setup. It records a reading into the MySQL database every five minutes using a Python script run by a cron job. The webpage runs a php script every two seconds. I found that if I ran the script every second I would get weird readings as it was when the sensor buffer was clear due to a new reading being taken. By making it every two second the buffer always has something in it.

I plan on getting their conductivity kit so I can monitor TDS. The issue here is that the PH and Conductivity sensors can't work together.....I forget why. I need to email Atlas Scientific to see how they would get them both working. I imagine I will need to look at an Arduino board to make it work.

If you get the Atlas Scientific PH probe, make sure you get the electrical isolation circuit too otherwise you will always have a PH of 10.0 due to interference from the other electrical kit in the tank!

Any questions please just ask!

Thanks

Ross


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Thanks for the info. Really nice piece of kit though I'm not sure I can justify the price:( - and that's before adding the isolation circuit.

As far as I can tell, the pH and conductivity probes should work together if they're isolated from each other - so presumably that means another isolation circuit.

Cheers
Mark

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Hi Ross

hopefully plant growth is improving :)

Like Jaap, I feel your flow is too great (very few plants in the trade are from riverine ecosystems) & lights too low, CO2 is high so unlikely the limitation.

I didn't notice if you're adding water column fertilizers, you might try small amounts (not much plant volume for uptake, presently)

Re Tropica soil not "holding" the plants initially, I find this is only a consideration in the first few days as the soil "spheres" slowly saturate - I use the powdered version so perhaps the larger particles are more given to "float" ...
I add Tropica Growth Substrate, then Tropica soil, then fill the tank slowly - there is considerable air trapped in the substrate which slowly releases over the next several weeks (I think this is a good thing in a new tank substrate so set up my tanks with this outcome no matter the substrate chosen), drain the tank & refill as needed until I'm happy with water clarity (1-3 times depending), then plant with substrate damp but no pooled water.
Using this method I have very few floaters - depending on plant species, rooting occurs over the next days to weeks & then I can actually "vacuum" close to substrate to remove debris etc.

I find a shrimp & otocinclus clean up crew very good at limiting plant melt - shrimp tend to remove damaged leaves before there's much visible melt, otos control diatoms (which can quickly coat plant leafs) ... of course this rather supposes a cycled filter & large water changes (especially if using ADA soils).
 
Any updates?

Hi Mark,

I use the Atlas Scientific probe and circuit. Really easy to setup. It records a reading into the MySQL database every five minutes using a Python script run by a cron job. The webpage runs a php script every two seconds. I found that if I ran the script every second I would get weird readings as it was when the sensor buffer was clear due to a new reading being taken. By making it every two second the buffer always has something in it.

I plan on getting their conductivity kit so I can monitor TDS. The issue here is that the PH and Conductivity sensors can't work together.....I forget why. I need to email Atlas Scientific to see how they would get them both working. I imagine I will need to look at an Arduino board to make it work.

If you get the Atlas Scientific PH probe, make sure you get the electrical isolation circuit too otherwise you will always have a PH of 10.0 due to interference from the other electrical kit in the tank!

Any questions please just ask!

Thanks

Ross


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Hi All,

Apologies for the lack of updates it has been manic.

So not great news the plant melt stopped so i added some more 1-2 Grow plants to replace the meted ones but these are now showing signs of melt after a week of being in there. I dropped the lights down to 30% and i have re arranged the spraybar. My thinking behind this is that maybe the lants in the middle and back of the tank aren't getting enough CO2. I'll post some photos up later on.
 
Right so the melt is as shown below! I've put the lights down to 30%

Melt_1_16.jpg


Melt_2_16.jpg


I just don't know what to do!! It seems to be the HC, Postegemon Helferi and the Repens that are suffering. They were all new plants i brought a week ago on Thursday. They were ok for the first week but then started to slowly melt!


I feel like i'm banging my head agaist a brick wall! It doesn't help seeing some journals where people create decent scapes so easily!!
 
Hello my friend.

I feel you. I had/have the same feeling of despair. However. remember that desperate times call for desperate measures!

First thing first! I believe you have the same exact tank as George Farmer had in this aquascape (http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/georges-tmc-signature.25103/). This means that you have very very low light if you take into account that he has 2 x TMC 1500 on 100% intensity! So since nothing has worked for you up until now, I suggest you go half way than George Farmer did and just full blast your light to 100% intensity. Do This over a weeks time, increasing the intensity 10% per day or if you are not sure go 5% a day. However, I believe that 100% is your destination for sure.

Secondly, I am experiencing the same thing you are and I have made the observation that my Monte Carlo started to melt when I saw some algae and decided to lower the light intensity. Then the melting came and I thought lets lower light intensity even more! But yesterday I talked with George and he clearly said to increase the lights to 100% intensity and if CO2, Circulation and Fertilazation are ok then the plants will be fine. If you have algae just clean it up until the plants start doing well and then the algae will disappear.

I am 100% sure that your circulation and CO2 are more than enough! You are using EI so even if you are messing up the dosing or the mixtures or whatever, since you have a low biomass at the moment, it should cover the fertilization part! My friend, the problem is your light!

George Farmer said go 100% intensity and when George Farmer gives an advice I follow, no questions asked! :)
Even if he is wrong....we both have hit a brick wall, so there is only one way out of it! Do something we haven't done before! Up the light intensity drastically!

Yesterday my light intensity was 40%, today it is 50% and tomorrow it will be 60%. I have seen that at 40%, I have problems so there is only one way out of it and that is going up. If we mess up then whats the difference, you plants are melting as it is....but if there is a 50% chance for the plants to bounce back if you increase the light intensity then go ahead and take it mate.

As for the people in the forum, I am sure we are trying to give the best advice possible but sometimes we make mistakes :) One of the mistakes we make is to relate melting with low co2/circulation....

"Its your lights, you need to have brighter lights!" - said by no-one never before

Thanks
 
Hi Jaap,

I had a read of your thread, I'm glad I'm not the only one with this issue. I've upped the lights like you said and it looks like the melting on the Repens and Helferi has stopped.... Touch wood.... I'm going to risk it and add some more plants as not much survived! It's a £30 experiment but what the hell!

I think I am at 80% at the moment and will increase this over the next couple of days to 100%

Let's see what happens!!!



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Hi Jaap,

I had a read of your thread, I'm glad I'm not the only one with this issue. I've upped the lights like you said and it looks like the melting on the Repens and Helferi has stopped.... Touch wood.... I'm going to risk it and add some more plants as not much survived! It's a £30 experiment but what the hell!

I think I am at 80% at the moment and will increase this over the next couple of days to 100%

Let's see what happens!!!



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Maybe a few pictures?

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Hi Jaap,

As requested!

The Fissendens seems happy:

Fissidens_16.jpg


Bubbles_16.jpg


However this was where the Helferi was as you can see the Repens isn't melting anymore, apart from some of the smaller bits but i think this is because it melted already before i had upped the lighting:

Bare_16.jpg


Here is the tank side on i'm thinking of getting some Blyxa Japonica to put along the back. I've always had good success growing it. Also it would add some plant mass.:

Side_16.jpg


As you can see there is a bit of Algae:

Algae_16.jpg


My thinking was to remove the sand and add Amazonia so i can get a carpet where the sand was.

Ive got some Monte Carlo comming so am going to remove the HC and add that. I also have more Repens and Helferi as well. I'm in two minds about going to full tap water but i think i will see how the new plants go.

As always any advice is welcome!!

Thanks

Ross
 
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