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60ltr at 4bps???

•Cai•

Member
Joined
4 Dec 2015
Messages
218
Location
Hartlepool
Hi all, I've posted a couple times about co2 and had some really top answers so far so hopefully you can aid me again.

I've a 60litre tank,medium to full packed with plants such as HC, rotala bonsai, vivipara, Cryptocoryne lutea. Quite slow growing a lot of them.

I was told to set an initial rate for co2 which I did. 2bps and see how long it took for the co2 to drop say 0.5 of a unit. I did so and set my timer for 2.5 hours before lights on.

I bought a decent ph pen and took the readings throughout the day. My initial ph was 7.3 before any co2 was added. It only dropped to 6.8/6.7 I think at this rate at its lowest.

Since then I've tweaked co2 and left it for day to observe unit drops. It's took me about a week to get a 1unit drop but it's a rate of 4bps. As I've read this is a lot of co2 for my tank.
I have good flow using a fluval 305 canister filter at its highest flow rate as it's connected to a inline heater and inline atomiser so I figured flow rate would have slowed to what's said on manual. I can visibly see co2 reach bottom of tank and work in a circular movement around tank.

I just want to know wether there's something a miss with what I'm doing with amount of co2 added as I'm worried this much is going to affect my livestock when I add them in couple weeks.

I took my kh and gh readings to see what the buffering was like within tank water
The kh took 12 drops and gh took a whopping 23 drops of solution to change the colour needed. Could this be affecting my limited drop in ph?

Can I run at this rate of bubbles or lower it?

I just feel that if I'm throwing too much co2 at my tank for no reason then I'd like to know so I can make a change before livestock is added.


Cheers
 
Rather than testing your water perameter you would be better off purchasing a Glass drop checker and fill with bromide blue solution. This fuild changes colour with the quantity of co2 (PPM) within the water column - low co2 levels blue colouration, high levels of co2 yellow.The ideal colour is grass green to lime green, if yellow is achieved your fish will suffer and will be floating on top of the water.

Paul
 
Ye I've got drop checker also. I'm getting a very light yellow/tinge of green to get my 1unit drop in ph however. I'm using 4dkh solution with it.
 
Remember a drop checker has a delay, this can be an hour or two hours so the colour you are seeing is the colour from some time ago. This is why PH pens are recommended.
 
I went with @ceg4048 advice with pen so id say it's pretty sound advise without blowing smoke up his backend. It's been giving me an immediate reading. This is how I know my readings throughout day when I've spent day in front of tank. My ph still isn't dropping 1unit after 2.5 hours but I can hardly increase my bubble rate and time on prior to lights would have to be a fair few hours I would have to say.
I would budge to flow but my tank is filled with misted co2 throughout. Like I said it's a fluval 305 canister at it's highest flow rate. For 60litres it should be more than enough so it leaves me slightly frustrated at the high rate of co2 I'm adding. I'm just glad it's a small tank.
 
If you are dosing EI you could drop some of the powder in the tank to see what the flow does. This is what Ceg told me to do and I could immediately see what the flow was doing and where the flow wasn't getting to.

I used the trace powder and I did it on water change day!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
It kinda depends on you kH value and current pH to find out what your theoretical estimate ppm co2 is. You aim for a 1 unit pH drop, but take in account at what pH value you start the day (light) cycle. If you kH is for example kH4 and start with a pH 7.0 than a 1 unit drop isn't what you need in this case and slightly to much if you have fish.

So even with a drop checker and a pH meter you need to use a table like this to estimate your current co2 ppm and know your start value if you aim for 1 unit drop.

Looking at the table and estimate kH12 to a pH 6.8, than you're already pretty high in co2.. Thus a start value of pH7.3 doesn't require a 1 unit drop..
 
Im no expert on plants so I just see how my plants look and their needs. Still learning though.
 
Ye by that chart I'm using around 113ppm to my kh and ph I'm down to. I'm slightly confused now to which method to use. The chart or getting down to 1unit drop In ph regardless? @ceg4048 advised on latter if I've understood him right which would cause me to question the use of the chart.. I obviously don't want to be going stupid with co2 and keeping to 7.0units in ph would be so much easier to produce but I don't want plants Struggling and the allowing algae to take a foothold. I'd be devastated as of yet I've had none(touchwood).
 
Keep in mind there are several components to kh and pH, not all are relevant.
I would perosnally use a number of methods to see if I've got enough or too much co2:
PH drop, lime green drop checker and fish.
As for flow, cegs recommendation of adding the powder to see flow is spot on. That it use an inline diffuser

Please excuse grammar and spelling mistakes in this post. I'm posting from my phone/tablet.
 
It might be that you somewhere misinterpreted the 1 unit drop approach.. Logicaly if you do not degass your tank with adequat surface agitation or an airstone over night, than your pH probably will not rise 1 unit over night. There still will be a fair amount of co2 left in the water. As what i've undertood from this approach, you could take some tank water in a glass take the pH value and let the glass stand for 24 hours and measure again. If this difference is 1 unit, than you're probably at the correct value of co2. If i'm not mistaken..

Example i'm at kH4 and start the day at pH 6.9 and only drop to pH 6.4-6.5 and i do nothing to degass extra over night if i do it will rise to around pH 7.5..
If i drop to pH 6.2 i see my fish having faster gill movement, so thats my turning point. So imagine i would do a 1 unit drop starting at pH 6.9 down to pH5.9 it'll probably kill my fish. ;)

If you like to experiment beyond the green drop checker, forget all charts and you realy need to pay very close attention to your fish.. First their gills start to move faster and could swell and turn very red, 2nd stage they go near the surface gasping for air.. 3th they go upside down, 4th is death.
 
I was having similar problems to yours. I had pretty high CO2 and could even hear effervescence from CO2 degassing. My pH was 7.4 before lights and I could only get to maximum drop around 6.6. What I found out was that the 1 unit drops refers from the CO2 balance with the atmosphere which I want getting unless I removed water from the tank and left it 24h.

I know run an air stone during lights off and get more than 1 unit drop but phony drops to 6.9. So if your drop checker is yellow you probably have more than enough CO2

Enviado do meu LG-V500 através de Tapatalk
 
I apologise if I'm misinterpreting anything. I'm just following Cegs advise from this Input he gave me on a previous thread:


"CO2 injection is somewhat of an art form and it's the most difficult feature of growing plants.
The idea is to set an arbitrary bubble rate and to determine how long it takes to drop the pH of the tank. If there are no fish then it doesn't matter what the bubble rate is. Instead of depending on the dropchecker, which is notoriously slow to respond, measure the pH of the tank water before the gas is turned on, then continue to take pH readings, say, every 30 minutes throughout the duration of the gas injection period.
Take note of the time at which the pH reaches it's minimum value.

The goal is to have an injection rate that can drop the pH about 1 unit, but to not allow the pH to drop much further. Ideally, this takes about 1-2 hours, but if your flow/distribution is poor, it may take longer. If the pH continues to fall below a difference of 1 pH unit then toxicity can become a serious issue. You will then need to reduce the injection rate and perhaps turn the gas on earlier so that the pH flattens out over the rest of the photoperiod.

Did I mention that flow/distribution is paramount? People poo-poo this idea all the time, citing examples of this famous person or of that famous shop who don't follow this path and yet still have great results. The thing is that there are solid equipment and infrastructure reasons they can get away with it and unless you have those reasons in your equipment you'll need to pay attention to flow/distribution.

You'll need to fiddle with the needle valve over the course of the next few weeks and monitor the pH so that you gain an understanding of how the gas is behaving. For this reason I suggest that you get a good quality pH pen and to keep it calibrated. This make life a lot easier. Using the pH reagent can get tedious.

The day after you start injection, the pre-gas-ON pH may be a little lower than the first day. That's because there may be some residual CO2 dissolved in the water on the second morning. Don't worry about that. Just remember what the first reading was and use that number as your reference.

There are lots of things that will affect the pH readings. Over time, the tank produces organic acids which tend to lower the pH. Plants grow and then USE the CO2, removing it from the water, which tends to raise the pH. This may require a slight adjustment of the needle valve to pump more gas. Higher water temperatures reduce the solubility of gases, so in warm weather this will tend to raise the pH. If your tank is heated you can lower the thermostat to say, 23 degrees instead of 25 degrees. This improves gas solubility and will tend to lower the pH. If you are using tap water, then water change day may disrupt your readings because tap water generally has high CO2, so if you change a large volume of water (which you should be doing) you will tens to see lower pH values before and during injection. Some regulators do not regulate well as the gas pressure in the tank falls. The gas flow rate may suffer which will tend to raise the pH.

So there is a lot of learning to do regarding how your particular tank, with your particular equipment behaves. Observe the plant health and monitor the pH so that you get a clearer picture of cause and effect.

Use the dropchecker as a "quick reference guide" but do not depend solely on it's color changes. The DC should corroborate what you observe the the pH readings.

Cheers,"
 
So I've been and checked my water after waking up and it's sat at 7.0. That's 0.3 of a unit drop from my arbitrary reading of 7.3.
How I've interpreted Cegs advise is to not worry about the residual co2 left in water and still look for injection rate that will bring my levels down to close to 6.3 but no lower. If it bottoms out at say 6.4 but never lower and stays stabilised around this number throughout period then that is a good injection rate as there isn't too much fluctuation of co2 or ph.
What in this am I misinterpreting?
 
Hi cai, which bubble counter are you using some have a very small aperture so your 4bps could be less than 1bps with a different counter, it's possible your drop checker is giving a false reading due to the small bubbles dissolving in the dc leading you to believe you have higher co2 levels, I would use the ph probe and aim for the 1 point drop, monitor plants no melt algae etc then all good, add livestock before co2 on and make sure you are around to adjust co2 accordingly, drop checker and bubble counter are very rough guides, ph pen is the most accurate measure you have.
 
Hi cai, which bubble counter are you using some have a very small aperture so your 4bps could be less than 1bps with a different counter, it's possible your drop checker is giving a false reading due to the small bubbles dissolving in the dc leading you to believe you have higher co2 levels, I would use the ph probe and aim for the 1 point drop, monitor plants no melt algae etc then all good, add livestock before co2 on and make sure you are around to adjust co2 accordingly, drop checker and bubble counter are very rough guides, ph pen is the most accurate measure you have.

I agree entirely. You've had great advice from Ceg also, relax and watch and learn from the fish and plants, with high circulation and night aeration 4bps isn't excessive.
 
@tim its the co2art precision metal bubble counter with built in check valve. My whole co2 system is co2 art bought premium complete system. I've just bought an inline reactor off eBay however as I don't like the constant mist effect my atomiser creates. I'm happy to go looking for the 1unit drop. I just thought 4bps was a lot for a 60litre tank. There's probably only 50litres in there at the most. I understand it's an artform and dialling correct co2 in is an artform I have to learn. HOWEVER, why go blind with it when there's many a pro on here that can help me not waste a ridiculous amount of co2 by listening to your answers and advice.
A clever person if confused should try and ask the right questions to glean the appropriate direction to go in. This is what I'm trying to do so thank you everyone for the time your giving me to work this witchcraft out. :thumbup::wacky:
 
The day after you start injection, the pre-gas-ON pH may be a little lower than the first day. That's because there may be some residual CO2 dissolved in the water on the second morning. Don't worry about that. Just remember what the first reading was and use that number as your reference.

Ceg is spot on with his explaination. :) But i guess the above quote is probably your misinterpretation.. :) I think he means remember the very first reading you made to start with and estimate where you end point is from that. It's not meant as the first reading of every other day to start with. Or maybe i'm misinterpreting your situation and question.. Now i'm a bit confused as well.

There seems to be no way for us to tell the excact ppm of co2 in our tank, of what i understand this even is very difficult with very expensive lab equipment. So that leaves us only with what the pH meter, the co2 chart, your plants and fish tell you.. If your tap water kH is 12 and your start value pH is 7.3 from the tap. Regarding the chart you already must have a pretty fair amount of co2 in the tapwater of almost 19 ppm.. :) If i compare it to my tap water readings i have a 3 ppm co2 in my tap water.

That's why many people take a glass of water, from the tank or tap and leave it for 12 to 24 hours and measure it again. And use that value as start value for the 1 pH drop.
That's the first reading you have to take with you for al next days after that. ill you do the same check again.

"CO2 injection is somewhat of an art form and it's the most difficult feature of growing plants.
This is what makes it so difficult, whatever everybody is telling you, what you see happening in your own tank is what you realy get. And that can be somewhat contradictive of what is told. There are no 2 tanks to find which are excactly the same. For example i'm such a Poo poo (just kidding) experimenting all the time and running my tank with very low flow (less then half of the recomended) the past few months and still have good results. And still are waiting for the problems it might bring. :thumbup: But i think for this tank it works. The only thing you can do is start with all average recomendations in check and work your own way up and down the road with what you experience in your tank. This can take months to find the right way to make everything looking equaly happy.. :)
 
There are plenty of opinions about getting the best from your set up & plenty of people who love to confuse the matter.
Cegs advice is sound in my opinion & I would stick close to his recommendations.
This vid seems to be doing the rounds on all the planted forums at the moment, but have a quick look at 7.45 on the vid...

 
I have at the minute buckets of water waiting to be put in tank and it's been sat there since yesterday afternoon. My tap water straight from tap is 7.3 and testing tat bucket water is 7.4. Hardly a big leap in change.

That's what I went with. 7.3. Then, trying to drop a unit to 6.3 regardless of it showing for instance today, 7.0. I'm still using my arbitrary 7.3 reading.
I'm not changing my ph everyday with what I have on that specific day.

I'm happy that my plants are growing and as of yet(touchwood) I'm yet to see any algae. I'm sure it's lurking, ready to pounce.
 
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