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Really fast bubble count!

Franks

Member
Joined
26 Aug 2015
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310
I've just installed my co2art FE kit with intense bazooka and I'm slowly trying to dial in the correct amount of Co2 with the included DC. I started with 1bps and after 2 hours the DC remained blue. Over 2 days I began to increase bps and it's now at around 5 bps and the DC is still a shade of blue. Its difficult to tell the colour and I'm now wondering how I can accurately keep increasing the bps to get a lime green indicator. I've resorted to tapping a bpm counter on my phone for each bubble I see and then deviding that figure by 60.

The fish look good with no gasping and after only two days testing, the plants have began to pearl slightly after 4 hours of lights on. Some of the leaves have also started to really point upwards and colour up brilliantly.

Tank is 155 litres and if it can take more Co2, it's going to really colour up!

Shall I just keep slowly increasing bps daily? No one on the net seems to run such a high bubble rate even on some tanks much larger than mine! I know it's subjective but still, it concerns me that I might need to be nearer 10bps before I'm getting a lime green DC.

Maybe doing a ph test before the gas is on and just before it goes off would be a better yard stick as to how near to a whole point my ph is dropping?

Thanks.

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You need check and check more for leaks. If you think you've checked, then check again. :)
 
Never used the diffuser you discribe,But i use a up inline one and my bubble count is unreadable,More like a steady stream.Its always been like this with this diffuser.Dont know if its because they work at higher pressure? Maybe yours is the same?
If your plants are pearling co2 is def getting to your tank but def check for leaks too.
 
Ill go back and double check for leaks. This is the new style improved reg with adjustable output pressure. I tested all the reg connections before fitting any Co2 tubing. There were no bubbles at any joints before the solenoid so perhaps there is a chance I have one after the solenoid.

Its worth noting I also went for the larger 60mm bazooka rated up to 300 litres. Having played with it. It seems to need over 15 psi to work. I run mine are 40psi and when it switches off, the output pressure rises slightly to 48psi.

I'll double check Co2 tubing joints tonight.

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Oh and the absolutely tiny bubbles from the diffuser are making it around the whole tank. They come out like white smoke! Every inch of the tank is covered by co2 which is nice.

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Have a good look at your DC to make sure that the gap between the lower open space and the actual bubble is not blocked by a water droplet. When I set up my co2 art kit, supplied with the small drop checker, I had the same issue - ie DC staying blue whilst PH pen indicating a drop.
The actual neck is so narrow that the surface tension of the fluid allows a drop to block the tubing. It needs a few flicks / turns to unblock.

Have you checked the ph every hour to see if you are getting a drop in ph?
 
Sorry to add but couldn't find a way to edit my previous post

It sounds like you are at the high (maybe dangerous) end of co2 saturation, and if you have livestock I wouldn't ramp it up any further on the basis of an untested (in your environment) drop checker.

Drop checkers should be used as a quick visual guide after the levels are set, and not really a calibration tool. You really need to get the resting tank PH and look for a PH drop as Co2 is applied. The PH drop you are looking for is generally quoted as 1 unit drop, but this also depends on the KH.
 
Diffuser is an inefficient method of adding CO2 for such large tank. I wouldn't be surprised if you need 10 BPS or more.

A CO2 reactor may be necessary if you want to make the bottle last longer, much more efficient method. .
 
We have very soft water supply in Manchester. Out of the tap it's approx 6.8. I tested the tank a while ago without Co2 and it was similar. I've just tested now and it's at the lowest it can go which is pure yellow at 6pH!

I've reduced the bps to 2.5 and now need to find a way to measure pH beyond 6 as this is the limit of my API solution kit.

Can ayone recommend anything?

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PH drop you are looking for is generally quoted as 1 unit drop, but this also depends on the KH.
No it doesn't, please check facts before stating..:(

A simple check below will show why. Water exposed to normal air will have about 3ppm. Thus for instance 5kH water will have a pH of 7.7 when exposed to air. Dropping the pH by 1.0, due to CO2 injection, will lower pH to 6.7 which is a CO2 ppm of 29.9ppm.

Similarly water of 15 kH has a pH of 8.2, dropping pH to 7.2 gives a ppm of 28.4ppm.
CO2_Graph_zps9c124ef0.gif

now need to find a way to measure pH beyond 6 as this is the limit of my API solution kit.
Please use a pH pen, you will not get meaningful pH reading using a liquid test kit. Note that due to other interfering influences the pH pen will generally over read, meaning you CO2 will be less than 30ppm, so need to use in conjunction with a green drop checker. Drop checkers are not affected by interfering ions and salts in the water.
 
So if the DC isn't used used to dial in the Co2, is the only 'true' way the pH and hardness test followed by incremental retests as the day progresses while gas is on? There's so much info on this subject and yet there's lots of conflicting advise!

I'll get a pH pen and hardness test kit.

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No it doesn't, please check facts before stating..:(

A simple check below will show why. Water exposed to normal air will have about 3ppm. Thus for instance 5kH water will have a pH of 7.7 when exposed to air. Dropping the pH by 1.0, due to CO2 injection, will lower pH to 6.7 which is a CO2 ppm of 29.9ppm.

Similarly water of 15 kH has a pH of 8.2, dropping pH to 7.2 gives a ppm of 28.4ppm.
CO2_Graph_zps9c124ef0.gif

Please use a pH pen, you will not get meaningful pH reading using a liquid test kit. Note that due to other interfering influences the pH pen will generally over read, meaning you CO2 will be less than 30ppm, so need to use in conjunction with a green drop checker. Drop checkers are not affected by interfering ions and salts in the water.


Sorry for any confusion caused, PH and KH are often linked and I may have misunderstood the connection. I was just trying to help the OP stop gassing his fish.
I am aware that it is important to supply accurate information and appreciate your explanation, but it is very difficult for us mere mortals to check all facts before posting, so will leave it to the mods to respond in future.
 
Excellent. I've ordered a pen off ebay which has more pH range and it should be here this week. So accurate dialling in can be done solely off that graph along with the pen once I get a 1 point drop.

I'll test the tap, compare it to what should be a depleted Co2 tank just before it starts to inject and hopefully get a very similar figure before doing retests every few hours with an ultimate end goal to drop 1 pH point by the time the lights come on 2 hours later.

Does that sound correct?

Does

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I didn't bother with a pH pen, just used drop checker. Took ages of fiddling (weeks) to get it right, nice green at lights on and to stay the same green during light period and not go yellow.

Note that CO2 level in the water also depends on many things..
- Water temperature
- injection method
- KH
- Amount of surface movement

So will take a bit of fiddling for you to get it correct for your tank. My 180l tank uses 15gr per 8hour CO2 period to get green/yellow drop checker. So gives you an idea of how much is needed.

You want this at lights on
upload_2016-6-27_16-25-18.png


And not this, though fish don't seem to mind.
upload_2016-6-27_16-30-54.png
 

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What's wrong with running in the yellow if your fish don't care?

To hell with drop checkers. They are a very general guide and are always 1-2 hours behind the actual value. I've had more success using pH drop and my eyeballs.

I up CO2 until the very early signs of fish distress, then back off and leave it there, In my case fish distress is 0.7pH drop, I back off to 0.5pH and all is well there.

KH/pH/CO2 table is notoriously inaccurate. Before my CO2 comes on I have 6.5pH and 2KH. Technically my tank has 19ppm CO2 before CO2 even comes on... laughable!!!!
 
KH/pH/CO2 table is notoriously inaccurate
No it is not. The values in the tables are calculated values, it is your measuring equipment and method that are the issue. The values in the table are eminently repeatable with correct equipment and measuring techniques.

Technically my tank has 19ppm CO2 before CO2 even comes on... laughable!!!!
This will be due to either "other acids" present in the water or salts affecting your pH reading.

Definitely the best way to measure CO2 is the drop checker, as it is isolated from the tank water, but as you point out maybe behind time.
 
Thanks for explaining ian_m

I use an API KH test kit, less than 6 months old. I use an ebay pH pen that is regularly calibrated. Not lab grade equipment by any means.

Acids present may be some leaching from driftwood and ADA Amazonia. Soil is approx 1.5 years old, driftwood has been in there for 2 years. Very lightly stocked, kept super clean with no rotting plant matter. Top substrate layer siphoned regularly to remove mulm and detritus.

EI method (scaled back by watching plants) and 60% WC weekly. Purigen in use.

KH adjusted upwards using crushed coral. I'm running 2KH and 5GH.

Lots of flow and surface movement, similar to a Tom Barr or George Farmer style tank.

CO2 on 2 hours before lights, off 1 hour before lights off. Running a diffuser at around 1 BPS.

Anything in there you think might be throwing my testing off?

Definitely the best way to measure CO2 is the drop checker, as it is isolated from the tank water, but as you point out maybe behind time.

Definitely the best way to measure CO2 is with a CO2 meter. The best of a bad lot that hobbyists have access to may be dropcheckers, although I think pH has more value. We can agree to disagree perhaps. :)

I guess in reality the best tool we have is our eyeballs.
 
As I was concerned with my DC not changing colour, I removed it to find it was actually a shade of green and the tank water, reflecting glass and plant mass make it impossible to accurately gain any colour detail while in the tank.

13:20 Two and a half hours after Co2 on and the lights have been on for 20 minutes...
6da02754f143f20fab49f8ad03783b87.jpg


18:00. One hour before Co2 off...
1a71f04f4d69377b1250641dd77f3b26.jpg
55d2953a83abf90c6ea76120f8fecd74.jpg


22:30. Three and half hours after Co2 off...
fb6d95532db319693e45db3edbdc63f1.jpg


08:30 this morning. Two and half hours before Co2 on...
d7d883a167b478e2372358a5961449ed.jpg


I now find it's easy to read if I slide the DC up the glass with its funnel still in the water column so results aren't skewed by letting in atmospheric gas and loads of o2.

These results were with a day of running 3.5 bps, which seems much more realistic for the size of the tank. I must have been in the yellow and not known when I was running over 5bps although fish didn't look distressed.

Itll have to wait until the weekend before I can analyse the DC at the crucial light on moment but it seems like I'm on the right track from those images right?

Thanks

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I used to hold a piece of white plastic behind my glass drop checker, like as you said, it is hard to read the transparent drop checker, mine looked green most of the due to the plants.

I bought the JBL drop checker which has a built in white sheet and is much much easier to read.
 
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